help with P51 tactics

[Soulyss]

I'm just going to come right out and say it.  I love the P-51, not because it's over modeled under modeled  or whatever, just that I've had a deep interest in this aricraft for many years and will be flying it for some time to come.  I do ok in fights where I can dictate the terms, ie have an altitude advantage to begin with where I begin to have real problems is in HO (which I try to avoid) but any fight that begins on even terms I'm in deep trouble usually.  Any experienced pon jocks out there that have any advice I'd love to here it.  I now most the basics and have been playing here for a couple months now.  Thanks for the help in advance.    

[This message has been edited by Soulyss (edited 01-19-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Soulyss (edited 01-26-2000).]

[TT]

 I dont think you need to be imbarest to fly the latest version of the P51. The UFO-D is gone.

 I took it up a couple of time. Got a handful of kills. Im not really a pony pilot. But based on what little experiance I have. I would say to keep your E up at all costs. And dont fire until you are around 150 yrds. If you have others around to finnish your kills you can get away with a  little spry and pray. But i was taking on 4 guys when I tried it. and this was the only thing that worked for me.

[humble]

I'm not really qualified to give advice on a pony..or any other plane ..but here goes.

1) The pony is an E fighter so it won't out turn a majority of the planes in the game (190 is only exception).

2) It operates better in the vertical than in the horizontal.

3) It's 6 .50's pack a great punch..but only at point of convergence...

SO...

1) E fighters need to be employed from a position of advantage..dont engage higher bogies if possible..climb at an angle 90 degrees to fight till your co-alt or higher.

2) use shallow dive and wep to maximize e at merge. Try and "bottom out 1500 under bogie at 2000 or so and begin gentle climb to merge.

3) if bogie goes nose down to HO apply rudder and pull up gently to vertical. You now "on the perch" and can prosocute attack from position of advantage.

If bogie stays over you..thats a warning sign..If he extends use low G climb to reverse..if he starts a gentle climbing turn..drop the nose and run for help.

On offense...use the ponys vertical manuvering and E to rope your opposition..you need to be wary of 109's (G6&G10) since they outclimb,outturn and out accelerate you (same for La5) and 190's in the vertical (combined roll and acceleration in dive make vertical scissors losing bet) Most others you can use low G zooms to gain advantage on.

On defensive your weakness is your slow acceleration and poor sustained turn rate..so..

Never let pony under 225 IAS and never initiate a turn under 5k or so with other bogies around. Always have a 2k advantage at start of attack and work down to bogies level..dont go under bogie till your more proficient..one good ploy is dive in and level 500 over bogie...begin gentle pull up bout 1500 out if he slow and goes nose up..pull straight up and chop throttle, if you time it right you'll drop right on him..you'll die if you misjudge his e badly.

If he pulls up and has e continue in a shallow zoom climb ...if he gains you're now the grasshopper ...if he starts to fall back
pul up to maintain seperation..idealy you'll stall him out 1500 ft directly under you..

Hope this helps a bit..just remember you got this from a grasshopper

[Soulyss]

Thanks guys, I'll have to try some of this out sometime.  Is there any situation in this game where the P51 can out turn a 109?.  I've read Bud Andersons book numerous times and he states on several occassions out turning 109's.  Is this the case at higher speeds? where the 109's maneuverability suffers? if so if there any way to exploit the high speed handling of the P51 vs. the 109 without totally blacking out?.  

[humble]

I've never read the book...but there is a link posted in this BBS to an excerpt. In it he talks about the one german who got on his six (only time ever i think). Anyway he beats him in the end by a combination of throttle chop and a notch of flaps the 109 goes vertical and he gets him at top of rope...only way i think you'll out corner a 109 here is similiar tactics HOWEVER in AH the 109 would go vertical hang the prop and saw you in half when you stalled out.

[Lephturn]

Good Pony tips.  

I am an F4U Pilot until I get my P47, but I take a few spins in the Pony.

About all I can add is that the "never get slow" advice above is the best there is.  People say the pony can't turn... but that's not true.  The pony can't turn slow.. but fast it has a great turn rate.  Your goal in the Pony on a co-E merge should be to be at 300 Mph or so... the higher the better.  Generall speaking, the only way to die in the pony is to get low and slow.. so stay fast and if you go below 5k be haulin' bellybutton while you do it.    Also, don't be afraid to turn and extend... it's what the pony does best.  When you see 3 cons pop in above you, get the hell out of there.  Most times, the cons will get busy with an easier target and you can come back 1 min later with a big advantage and kick some ass.

It was mentioned that the pony is an E fighter, this is true, it is one of the best.  The way to actually use it as one is to conserve your E.  To conserve energy, watch your G meter and stay in the verticle.  You don't want to pull over 3 g's if you can help it... smooth and gentle is the trick to keeping your E.  If you are pulling to black-out you are dumping E as fast as you can... so make sure you only do this when it is safe to do so.  Watch your sector counters and radar so you know when bad guys are on the way or when you are alone and can burn E for a kill.

Also, one note about gunnery.  The 6 .50's on the pony don't need to be really close for best effect, they are good longer range weapons.  I know Vila and I both keep our convergence out at 250-300 in the stang (Vila ROCKS in the stang) and we both have great success hitting at that range.  Firing close in is only really necessary in lower muzzle velocity weapons like cannons, the .50 cals are good out to 300.  Just make sure you fire close to your convergence and get a sustained burst in to be sure of a kill.

Good luck!



------------------
Lephturn
The Flying Pigs

[Soulyss]

yeah I need to keep my eye on how many G's I'm pulling that may be part of my problem.  I set my .50's to converge at 400 for the outer 2 pairs and 425 for the inner pair and they can deal out a respectible amount of hurt at those ranges.  I generally fire at anything around or below 500ft away.  Managed to rack up a decent kill ratio that way.  Watch out for those 20mm's though I've been torched from 1k back.  Granted I wasn't doing a lot of manuevering at the time because I thought I was out of range, but it still tore me up real fast.  
As far as Bud Anderson goes the vertical kill he mentions in the first chapter he did get ahead of by dropping a notch of flaps.  But in other chapters he states that the 51 was more nimble and recounts other occasions when he out turned an opponent.  If anyone as any other advice I can never have enough so please keep it coming! hehe.

Again thanks for the input.

[Pongo]

Many of the pilots Bud Anderson was fighting where not very experianced. He might get away with the same things here but more likly he would get his hat handed to him if he tried to stall fight a good Spit, bf109, niki, or la5 pilot. These planes are all very capable as modeled and the 51 is as capable as any of them but only get in a turn and burn to save your wingman.
I would note as well that the 51 and spit still have one common advantage against the other planes. It subjective but dont they feel like supperior shooting platforms? more positive control for fine corrections or something?. Gunnery fast or slow just seems more positve in them, maybe its the trajectory of the 50 cal?


------------------
Pongo
Sturm Gruppe

[Lance]

I am no where close to an expert, but I'll toss out something that hasn't been specifically mentioned that often resulted in kills for me when I was flying p51's (been on a 190 & N1k kick for awhile now).  Its the low yo-yo.  I don't know what physics are behind the phenomenon (lift working with gravity?), but you can pull a 180 degree nose-low turn over 2 seconds faster in a p51 than you can a flat 180 degree turn with the same G-load.

Now of course other people can do the same thing, but there are many arena pilots that like to flat turn.

Gordo

[Sharky]

Soulyss,

There are several instances where a Mustang can out turn other planes.  Remember the Mustang has a very good instantanious turn rate at speed.  It's weak point is that it's sustained turn rate is low although if you keep speed up and go easy on the "Gs" it's sustained turn rate isn't bad either.

Additionally the Mustang retains energy very well if it isn't squandered in hi "G" manuvers.  As said before the Mustang's true vurtue is the zoom climb, never pull a long turn in the Mustang.  Instead pull for the quick turn and shot at the breaking con, then unload the stick and pull up into a low "G" loop looking over your shoulder for the cons reaction.  If he continues in the turn, continue over the top, roll the lift vector to a lead angle and come roaring back down for another shot.  Repeat as necessary  

Sharky

[Soulyss]

ok guys I'm back hehe    .  Been getting pounded on since V1.0 came along.  Keep getting bounced by higher cons, anytime I get a bead on someone and go down after him 3 of his friends show up above us and I end up getting my fany shot off. Also the F4U-1C has been chewing me up real good in any high alt co-E encounter.  Is there any way the P51 can win a co-E HO ecounter? I've tried a couple things but with no luck.  My only pretty stead fast rule that I fly by is not to go HO with someone if they try it I usually try to dive under them to get my speed up so I can manuever.  But after that I'm lost.  At best I can keep the angles even and get into another HO but I can't ever seem to get behind them for any decent firing solution, can the P51 win a fight like this?  Keep that good stuff coming along     I really appreciate all your help.

[This message has been edited by Soulyss (edited 01-26-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Soulyss (edited 01-26-2000).]

[Saintaw]

CC that, Yesterday flying with the Bishops I got bounced multiple times in my Poney at Alt 28K or More !!! There were LOTS of Nikki's and 190's up there, hiding in the clouds...

Made some nice pursuits, but sigh...

------------------
Saint
DCO 186th Wardogs (Falcon4 Squad)
 http://www.wardogs.org/
"Firepower Mate, that is what separates the men from the boys..."

[This message has been edited by Saintaw (edited 01-26-2000).]

[BaneX]

Here's what I do when forced into a HO situation and I just dont feel like diving out of it. When they get within d1.5 I begin to do an aileron roll that way I present a bit more difficult target to hit. I also, start firing at that range and pray I do enough damage or kill them outright. This may or may not be something that works. For me it's been pretty successful except against the handful of truly excellent pilots out there.

baneX
=357th Pony Express=

[Soulyss]

You have more guts than I do my friend.  

[humble]

The pony should be more than a match for the F4U-1c co-e at any alt (correct me guys if I'm wrong here). My guess is your confusing oc-alt and co-e. The hog is cabable of building a big head of steam in a shallow dive and generating huge amounts of E.

On a co-alt merge (1 on 1)I'll enter a shallow dive at max range (8k) and look to establish some horizontal seperation as well. Ideally I'll be in a gentle nose up position with a 20-30 degree angle at 2500. This gives you lots of options to avoid HO's and try various openers.

If you keep the fight moving up the ponys climb advantage will kill the 1 easily.