Author Topic: Hey Trainers!  (Read 2128 times)

Offline Nash

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« on: April 29, 2000, 05:27:00 AM »
I got into a brief discussion about this with humble... and I figure it's an interesting subject.

From BFM to advanced ACM, there's a heck of a lot to wade through. Books and books worth.

My question is, where do you start when a new guy says to you: "I want to learn how to dogfight"?



Offline Nash

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« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2000, 05:40:00 AM »
Er, and lets assume he knows how to fly, he knows the mechanics of this particular sim, he has a handle on views and he has a basic understanding of terms like energy.

Nevertheless, he's gettin' killed allatime, and he's coming to you wanting to know how to 'dogfight'.

What is your approach, and what follows?

Offline Sharky

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« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2000, 07:15:00 AM »
Nash,

The first thing I do is fight him straight up.  The object is to allow me to see what he knows and what he lacks.

For instance the most common thing I see is that half roll, diving pass with guns ablaze, pull into a split S on the merge.  Thats the first thing I try to break a student of is that "gotta shoot if I can see a con in my foward view" syndrome.

I spend a lot of time talking to my students.  After a fight I will make them tell me how they got killed.  You'd be really suprised how a few leading questions will have a student telling you exactly how they screwed themselves.

Once I have identified a basic flaw in their tactics I set up a scenerio or exercise that allows them to correct that error and have them fly it several times and explain to me what they are doing and why.  Then we move on to the next thing until they can put together a good "smart" fight.

Sharky

Offline popeye

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« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2000, 07:41:00 AM »
What he said.  

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Offline weazel

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« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2000, 07:52:00 AM »
Ditto,generally I focus on the merge and try to impress on them this is where the fight is won-or lost.

Offline Minotaur

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« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2000, 09:07:00 AM »
My ACM skills are rather crude.  I will often pass a student on to a more experienced trainer, if one is in the TA, as soon as I realize that their skills are equal or exceed my own.

That said, I sometimes do find a player that I can work with.  Like Sharky said, most of the time in-experienced players will always try to get their nose on you to shoot.  They do not manuver for the "Set-up" they manuver for the "Shot".

If they don't know, I'll teach them to use E conserving vertical turns.  They will almost always initially use hard flat turns attempting to get lead.  This will be the first thing I will attempt to break them of.

I also try to introduce the concept of "Driving toward the corner" or "Flying to the elbow" vice "Pulling hard lead to get a shot". (LOL my biggest mistake   )

Perhaps, often times, what I emphasize the most is "You can't really do this in the MA, because someones buddy will come along shortly and blow you out of the sky".  I explain the hazards of an extended dogfight and then show or explain why.  This is when I try to make them aware of their E state, and realize that when a good time to "Bug Out" presents itself, take it while you still can.  

All this is well said and done.  However, most of my students are still stumbling with views, radio, trim, etc...  About 60% of my time is helping them with the game familiarization and set-up.  This is not the glory end of the game, but is the most important for new players.

BTW Nash, thanks for asking.  

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Offline Kieren

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« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2000, 09:36:00 AM »
To me, Sharky summed up where 95% of my students have been. Once I am sure a pilot can "fly", I ask them to attack me. I will merge intentionally lower than them to see how they handle what should be a pretty sure kill. As Sharky stated, most bore right in, Split-S, then overshoot big as I pull a big, lazy loop over their heads. I might do that a couple times, explaining how important it is to stay up, demonstrate, and if they don't "see it", explain with some simple physics (two identical planes, one is faster, which has greater inertia? How do you think that affects turn rate?)

I also add that one should enter any 1 vs 1 fight planning for at least 3 turns, don't blow all your advantage for one bad shot, etc.

Once I have that satisfactorily taught (where you at least see the student attempting the right moves) I move to the timing issue. Some moves are the "right" move, but only for a fleeting period of time (example: just when to kick rudder over on the fish you have roped, when to break from an enemy on your 6, how to time lag rolls to keep the bad guy in your lift vector, etc.)

I would look at it like this; you can't teach a raw beginner everything about ACM in one lesson. All you can do is give them the general idea and send them off to try some things. They are still going to die, but they will have a better understanding why that happens, and will learn how to better control the conditions that cause death. Ultimately, they die less and in time become proficient enough to deal some of their own.   Of course, some people pick it up quicker than others.

[This message has been edited by Kieren (edited 04-29-2000).]

Offline WW

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« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2000, 10:50:00 AM »
I made this mistake with WIZ.
I assumed he knew the basic flight stuff and began working on the merge right off the top.

Too many times he was stalling, hitting the ground, etc.

So I started getting him to follow the leader (me) guns cold, and took him through REAL basic ACM. This is a breaking turn. This is a loop. etc. Through each I got him to discribe what he noticed about the planes behavior. In breaking turns you slow, in loops you tend to rotate slightly, etc.
Got him practicing rolls without loosing alt or making big course variations. Told him to practice them 200 ft off the deck for accuracy testing.

That seemed to help alot cause it also taught him how to read where the nme plane is going based on their orientation.

He doesn't stall nearly as much now.

Offline Kieren

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« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2000, 11:04:00 AM »
WW-

Yeah, I had 4 guys at once the other night (no jokes, please!  ). Since there was no hope of breaking it down one-on-one, I decided that it would be better to get them in the air and run down a checklist of things (radio, views, js damper settings, autopilots- the whole bit).

After that we did some follow the leader. The first round was some easy BFM. I checked back to see how everyone was hanging, watching for anyone spinning out. Things looked good, so I sped it up next round and pulled some more G's. Things still looked ok after a bit, so I went for the full shake. Here I lost them, but they didn't do too poorly. In the final round I told them all to shoot me, and I would last as long as I could (and of course I was the ONLY thing they were to shoot!). Eventually one managed to realize the best thing to do here was to extend out of the fight a little and and come back with a good line on me (while the others kept me tied up).

After that we went to the base and did some all vs. me stuff that really helped them, I think. I never shot any of them down, yet they all knew when they were goners, and told me so. It turned out to be one of the most productive multiple sessions I've had.

Which leads me to this thought; perhaps we should have a weekly class where we could teach a particular skill or aircraft?

funked

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« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2000, 11:07:00 AM »
I try to focus on the technical aspects of flying, using the features of the software, and learning the whole game.  There's a LOT more to this game to furballing.

But if a guy asks for dogfight help, you gotta make sure they can fly first.

Use the same plane as them and do a co-alt merge.  You can tell pretty quick if their problem is technical or tactical.

If it's technical then teach them how to fly.  Have them follow you through various ACM until they figure it out.  If they really struggle with a maneuver, ride in their plane and let them ride in yours.  That's a good way to diagnose their mistake and let them see what it should look like.

Also some guys don't have the views down pat.  Lose sight, lose the fight.  Help them get the views set up and drill them on keeping a bandit in sight at all times.

Usually once a guy has a handle on the technical aspects I just tell him to go fly, and get some trigger time.  That helps more than anything.  Then they can come back and ask for more specific help.

Now if they have a tactical problem it usually falls into one of the following categories.

1.  They haven't figured out lead turns yet.  Lead and lag pursuit lessons, and practice lead turns from a HO merge.

2.  They don't understand the scissors/rolling scissors.  How to create lag by flying a longer path, and how to lower turn radius by climbing, reducing speed, and letting gravity help you.

3.  They don't understand guns defense - out of plane maneuvering.

4.  SA and Judgement.  They are having trouble choosing the right plane to attack, or misjudging the energy state of the enemy, or they don't understand the capabilities of the enemy's plane.

Finally, everybody should have a copy of Shaw's book.  Even if you can't figure out the jargon, the pictures are worth a zillion trainer explanations!



[This message has been edited by funked (edited 04-29-2000).]

Offline humble

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« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2000, 10:25:00 PM »
We talked a bit Nash..and sharky Kieren et al..have covered it pretty completely...but here's my thought proccess.

I agree you have to fly 1 on 1 to get a feel for where they're at.

I do the following...on 1st merge I set up co-e...then assume a little vertical/horizontal seperation..how a flier handles this is my 1st clue to his tactical knowledge. Thosewho orientate on me as a "target" are tactical novices..those that dive for the under position are a leg up...those who kind of slide away or equalize..are usually already pretty good.

Now on the merge I'll avoid the offered HO if taken (75% or so) and offer a "tweener"...a merge thats not fish or fowl... I'll look to see if opponent is flying his "fight" of adjusting to my move. That will clue me in to his SA in 1 on 1 ...suprised how many folks don't actually "see" fight (to be honest is my biggest weakness). Now most folks are toast here..and i'll call out..if not I'll go E on an angles opener and angles on an E opener...if they jump on opening...then i'll complement them and ask what they want help on. Most of the time they don't and I'll playit to end game...tickle em (.303 oer such) and then walk thru fight. I make it a point to play by play every fight..usually 4-5 per session.

I find that 80% or more of the folks I work with fly better than they think they do, but are tactically worse. I start working with folks on 3 basic "rules"

1) don't fall for nose down shot's early on in a fight (starting with HO's)

2) you never lose a good shot, don't force bad snap shots, work for a good shot.

3) Work on "seeing" the whole fight..you cant counter what you don't see.


Thats kind of it for round 1

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Offline Nash

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« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2000, 11:09:00 PM »
It's so enlightening hearing the different viwepoints on this. My tendancy has been to describe the difference between turn radius and turn rate, and how that translates into a nose-nose vs a nose-tail posture, for example. But... did ya hear that swooooshing noise? That's the sound of this going right over most new fellahs' head.

I completely *forgot* how essential the merge is. Duh - like weazel said, and basically it's mirrored by the rest of ya, that's where the fight is usually won and lost...

I think Kieren's idea is a great one. A scheduled night where one or two things get discussed in detail. Back in my mac days, we used to have these all the time. I can remember giving a few lectures on *just* the merge itself. It's funny how I've forgotten its importance to new guys.

We did this using Irc... of which Mirc is the PC version. How do these things usually take place on PC's? And should something like this be started up for AH?

Offline humble

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« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2000, 11:39:00 PM »
Great thread Nash,

I was just rereading the posts and wanted to add a thought. We all seem to arrive at the same point. A combination of "what" did you do...and "why" did you do it. I'll use my last "session".

Jcy19 and I spent sometime earlier tonight. The whole session evelved into 1 topic...energy retension...He's a truely outstanding "angles" dogfighter. I flew the 1st couple in a 109f vs his spit V...he just waxed me totally...but I saw a few things that explained his E problems..we went on to spit vs spit and had some excellent fight's.

I strung a merge and acm's designed to play on his agressive angles attack...and think i helped him a bit to understand the differance between outstanding flying skills..and good tactic's. I'd say all my "good" sessions really involve finding one key concept that I can pass on. If I can key on one thought or skill and improve it..I can make an impact that will carry over.

I'd love to get jcy19'scomments if he happens to read this or anyone else who went thru a session..with any of us.

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Offline Nash

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« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2000, 12:27:00 AM »
Great idea. It would be fantastic to hear from the people that have gone through a training session. What are your impressions? In what way do you learn the best? Has anything stood out? Did you have a "ah hah!" moment and what did it stem from?

Also, did you have any periods where you just couldn't understand what the trainer was trying to get across? What was it and why do you think that was?

er... stuff like that.

Offline Citabria

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« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2000, 12:48:00 AM »
heh.
 just let the scars of learning sink in and try to avoid things that make you go kaboom.  

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