Hey Trainers!

[easymo]

 For reading. I suggest krods flight sim pages. Or warbird pages. Some guys are shy about asking for help. The basic,s are the same here as they are in WB.
 www.nitro.co.za/propsim/

 www.nitro.co.za/warbirds/hatchlings/index.html

[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 04-30-2000).]

[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 04-30-2000).]

[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 04-30-2000).]

[Sparks]

This is a really good thread - I am one of the described newbies who thinks he can fly but gets shot all the time - Nash can testify for that from last night.
I would certainly like to fly with you Sharky to see if you can get me to see how I can improve because at the moment I just can't seem to get it together. I think your approach to teaching someone new sounds spot on.

I have flown with a few trainers now and usually the session starts well then deteriorates because I am having trouble understanding what the trainer is trying to tell me over the text buffer. Then I'll have an "ah ha" moment and another tiny piece of the jigsaw drops in.

A couple of points as far as I'm concerned as regards methods:-
1. I can't type and fly at the same time - I'm just not good enough yet and my brain and hands don't keep up. It is more useful to review after landing or in an autopilot cruise break.
2. Several times I think "I just lost the plot / blew this manouvre and I'd like to stop now to see what went wrong" but often we carry on flying the excercise and I forget exactly what happened. Perhaps some kind of "break" call would be useful to stop the action and get an immediate feedback.
3. I think the prediction of where you and your oppo is going to be in the next "n" seconds is the hardest thing for someone to get to grips with (from my own experience) and it seems one of the things that is hardest to be taught. I think that is the cause of the views problems that hmble? pointed out - I always go for the next view thinking "he's down there..." and bingo he isn't because in my head I've mis-calculated our relative movement. Lose sight for 3-5 seconds and your history.  Perhaps someone could devise an exercise forlearning where to look - difficult....

All in all I think everyone here does a fantastic job of bringing on newbies. I have come across from AW3 and this is way better.
I would like to perhaps wave a warning flag about formalising the TA tooo much though. In AW training was to a set schedule and very managed. The result was I didn't get to much of it because:-
a) I live in UK and the times were always EST freindly (you are too tired to learn at 2.00am   )
b) As a busy working person any booked time type leisure stuff tends to take a back seat to family / business.
What I have found in AH with the "walk in see who's there" policy is I have actually trained more. Sometimes no-one is interested and that's fair enough (it's all volunteered time after all) but generally speaking I get to fly with someone or get some kind of feedback.
I like the idea of different areas for different tasks - maybe we could have a ground gunnery area with targets and a dive bombing target practice area. How about target towing "drones" controlled by the server just wandering to and fro for total beginners to learn basic a to a gunnery.
Anyway this is long enough ....

[Sparks]

A few points I forgot on re-read.
1. All my "ah ha" moments were about manouvres I didn't understand how to do and the problem usualy stemmed from the terminolgy used by the guy training me and me non comprende - "do a reverse triple thrunge whatsit .." > "errr a what" > " you know like a loop triple thrunge doofer but flat.." > "eerrrrrr....." > shows me in join view > "oohhhh you mean and roll and pull thingy.."
2. The join view is hard to follow as it is very jerky and the g-meter appears not to register (or is that a fault with my software).
3. Training fights / manouvre flights should be short - broken up with auto pilot breaks - us poor newbie brains are taxed to the limit and can overload easily.  

[WW]

Shaw's book is a good one and even though it was written for jets, there are some sound tactics in there. I got my cross merge from there. There's a lot of good ACM geometry that I find helpful. My biggest problem in AH is getting used to the planes. I can usually tell when I'm flying with a stick. They tend to out turn me in equal menouvers with equal planes & E even when I start out with the advantage.
The rest of them always seem to get dragged into attacking nose down.

But TA being what it is, people are totally on their SA which is a good thing. I've gotten a couple kills in MA where the pilots didn't even know I was comming up on their 6. Do they forget their SA in MA or did they never have it?

Additionally, and I guess not so surprisingly, I've lost a trainer and a few sticks in "On the deck" low speed dances. IN my mind, one of the hardest fights to push home/stay alive in. Nash and I died together (at the same time) in one of these. Has there been so much attention placed on the "Normal" fight that low speed stuff has been forgotten or is this an aspect of the fight I should never be finding myself in anyway?


[This message has been edited by WW (edited 04-30-2000).]

[Kieren]

Low and slow with an enemy behind you is not a place you want to be, but it is useful to know how to deal with it if it happens. You don't always live (in fact, if the other guy knows what he's doing you shouldn't live) but you can often turn the tables on the unwary.

[Nash]

I would have to guess that the on-the-deck scissors type fightin' doesn't come up much because the trainers are helping you avoid this kind of situation, and cover the other situations (merge etc.) first. However, your right - against someone with equall skill, the fight will wind down to the deck 90% of the time. Scissors are definately something yer gonna want to add to your library of manuevers eventually.

Oh - and very good ctitique Sparks. That was exactly the kind of thing I was curious about.

[HARD SCOUT]

I was there ( newbie to AH but not flight sims ) when humble was teaching jcy19. I saw his chat. Sounds like jcy19 is doing alot better than me, lol.

Basically I think there are different levels of newbies. Those who have ZERO knowledge of flight sims and ACM, and then those who know the basic principles and have flown in other sims but don't understand how to apply that in AH.

I flew FA1.5 in SEMI and FULL REAL PHYSICS for 6-7 months then converted to FAII and fly TC( Intermediate physics ) and ADV TC( Advanced physics ). I know basic principles but mostly I do what comes natural.

After testing the Spit 9( my first time in AH ) I was having problems not stalling and spinning alot. So then I decided to try out a more vertical and energy fighter like a 109. So I took a 109G-10 into the MA. I only got maybe 2 kills but I was having more success adjusting to the 109's flight model in AH.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE angles fighting. But I need more practice in performing ACM in AH without stalling or spinning. Also trimming in FAII was a matter of hitting a button that trimmed all surfaces to your current flight path. So AH trimming is something I am getting use too. As well as non padlock, which I kinda like.

Even tested the 109G-10 with the elevator trim set up, Heard the actual 109 pilots use to do this. It makes is easier to pull up vert after the intial attack. But it was difficult to point the nose down. Still testing this out.

So far I like AH alot. I have bragged about it in the FAII NG and game rooms. Like the teachers in the TA room and the ability for them to jump into your cockpit. That is a great feature. As far as my flying, I am getting there slowly. Jumping from sim to sim does not help either. Although AH, helped me to be more patient in my attack and wait for the perfect shot.

hdscout                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

[humble]

hdscout,

I think any of us (trainers) can help you speed up the learning proccess. Based on what you wrote I think you've got good experience base to build on. I'll give you a few general observations that may help you. The following are my own thought's based on my 6 months of flying AH vs my 4-5yrs in AW. I welcome comment's,critiques,corrections if anyone feels they're needed.

The AH flight model seems to bleed E faster than any other, so proper positioning in an angles fight is essential. You need to learn to fly "inside" your opponent when neg E...and fly a vertical angles game early on.

I don't believe any kind of predominately horizontal angles works here at all. The rudder here is the real tool for angles flying...it's a finer touch than AW for sure..it'll act as a speed brake, good and bad at same time...no rudder and you'll get out turned..to much and you suck E to fast..so rudder pedals a must for true angles flier.

As a last thought, I believe that AH favors an aggresive angles flier, it seems that you can "hang on" reasonably well if you get early position...even if you've blown alot of E...the key is to ease off and fly an E fight...a lot of times the con will fly aggressively enough to evade to equalize E state without really reversing situation. This is were the E bleed helps you on back end...I'll bet your just pushing a little harder than you have to after merge...

Just a few thoughts..hope they help..look me up in TA if you want some more help. Also, curious if you could follow the recaps on jcy19's "lesson"...I am curious if it helps or hurts to have that on ch 1...figure it may help someone listening..but not really sure.

[humble]

WW,

>>>My biggest problem in AH is getting used to the planes. I can usually tell when I'm flying with a stick. They tend to out turn me in equal menouvers with equal planes & E even when I start out with the advantage.<<<

>>>Additionally, and I guess not so surprisingly, I've lost a trainer and a few sticks in "On the deck" low speed dances.<<<

This is why I feel that most folks fly better than they think...and have worse "tactical positioning" than they think.

A good example happened to me yesterday, I was in a 38 and had a nice little dance with tern (in a spit 5)...we went a good 3-4 minutes under 2000 ft, with 3-4 "re-merge's".

He asked me how I good out turn, him out loop him, and out run him...all in same fight. I tried to explain to him (not real well I guess) that I wasn't really out turning him...I was maintaining better tactical positioning...I was nose up when turning vs his nose down, looping when he was faster (thats the "flying inside" reference I keep making) and catching him nose up as I extended to remerge.

I kept trying to tell him , not even Citabria can make a 38 out turn a spit. I'm amazed at times as a trainer how good some of the evasives I see are once folks get down to the deck and "tactics" dissappear from their mind.

[Sharky]

Hi All,

Sorry I haven't been up much the last few days, the @home network has been coughing up blood the last few days.

Anyway Sparks, if you want to get together in the TA drop me a line at ftgcss@home.com and we'll set up a time we can both live with, maybe a weekend where neither of us has to get up the next day  

As to all that have talked about trying to type and fly, thats why I like to use short flights and long discussions on the ground.  I think it is important that the student understand what is trying to be taught before going up and then be able to discribe what happened in the air.

Most new guys thing that there is some magic move that will make them an Ace.  Unfortunatly the only think that works is practice, practice and more practice.  I'm sure all the old Warbirds vets can atest to how much money they spent at $2.00/hr. learning the art of ACM.

Additionally the guy that really wants to do well at ACM has to take some of his own time to do some reading.  Shaw's book is a must read along with Flet's lectures. (Flet's lectures can be found on the Warbirds website under the training section)

That reminds me.  Flet used to do some great lectures on the net.  I'm not a net weenie so I don't know how these were set up, but these would be great to see again.

Sharky

[Dingy]

Well, I am not an official trainer but have enjoyed going into the TA and taking anyone who wants any help under my wing for a little tutelage.

What I found today is that there are more and more online sim newbies who are coming online who have had little experience with even offline sims.  A statement like, "I cant get this plane to turn as well as the enemy can" quickly leads you to find out that they havent learned about the the trim features and so thats where ya start.  

Before you even start going on about E retention, maneuvering and positioning....teach them how to get the most out of their plane.  Once you show them how trim works, set them off to practice on their own.  THEN you can get down to BFM and ACM  

-Ding

[humble]

Good point dingy,

Coming from AW, trim a new thing to me entirely. Combined with FM issues and gunnery I really haven't focused on it.

I almost never trim in the middle of a fight...unless i'm trimmed at 350 and end up in a slow T&B I leave it alone. Would love to get some feedback on trim issues from you and others. I trim elv 1st, rudder 2nd airleon last in combat situation...that best order in your mind?

[Ripsnort]

First off, let me begin by tellin you that I wouldn't offer much that most don't already know.  The only reason I've been successful in the past with various A/C (Yes, I fly them all) is:

A) I always have  an  advantage over my opponent before  engaging.

B) I never get greedy, I will break and run before becoming defensive , because once defensive, with no altitude, I'm dead.(This is definately aircraft-dependant,if in a spit, I may be able to turn the odds, if in a FW190-A8 with no alt, I'm dead)

I think there are many trainers that are better suited for advanced ACM/BFM than I am.   I am good at the basics, good at intermediate ACM, BFM, but the advanced stuff I leave to those who've read Shaw.  I use the principle of "anticpation" of what  the enema will do, rather than my own flying abilities.  I wait until the opponent makes a mistake, then I capitilize on it.

In regards to the original question, I ask where the person that I'm training are their weaknesses...then go from there.  In life, I've applied the principal "Whereever one is weak, then theres room for improvement".  I used to be afraid of heights, so I became a skydiver.  I used to be  really shy around women, so I bartended for a spell. Etc. Etc.

Improve on one's weaknesses can help turn the weakness into a strength.

------------------
Ripsnort(-rip1-)
I./JG2~Richthofen~
=CO=Panzer Group Afrika-15th Panzer division
JG2 Communications Officer
Aces High Training Corps
JG2 "Richthofen"
       
Too often, we lose sight of life's simple pleasures.  Remember, when
someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it
only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm, grasp the joystick button,
and shoot the sucker down!

[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 05-03-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 05-03-2000).]

[funked]

I live for low & slow fights.  There is nothing more entertaining.  

WW You are probably just good.