"vector rolls"? in T&B combat

[humble]

Read a thread with a post from udie...started me on 190 thought's...I was a
"reasonably" good 190 driver in AW...but I flew the A4 as an E fighter...not as a B&Zer.

When I came to AH the horrible climb rate and fast E loss (compared to AW) made it tough...add trim issues to the equation and I migrated to the pony,nikki,205.

Anyway, pulled it out in the TA at the FFA base for a few runs...pretty clumsy in it...BUT I do see the potential...which brings me to the purpose of this post...I've read 2-3 places about "vector roll's"...this of course after I lent my shaw to a friend ...I know basic concept is roll away from cons break...push stick forward as you roll...and stuff plane into the "elbow" of turn...any additional comments..and do you use it?

[Dingy]

 

I've read 2-3 places about "vector roll's"...this of course after I lent my shaw to a friend ...I know basic concept is roll away from cons break...push stick forward as you roll...and stuff plane into the "elbow" of turn...any additional comments..and do you use it?

Never heard it called a vector roll.  What is sounds like is more of a lag displacement roll and yeah I use them all the time especially if im closing too fast on a lower bogie.  If Im understanding correctly, you are talking about rolling out of the same plane as the bogie and pulling away from the direction of the bogies travel to gain some separation (the lag displacement) and then rolling back into the direction of the bogies break.  Is that what you are talking about?  If so, I basically use it to if my AOT is 30 degrees or greater to saddle up for a tracking shot on the bogies six.

If thats not what you are talking about, I apologize  

-Ding

[humble]

Dingy,

Actually i'm not certain, but I dont think it's a lag displacement roll. The 1st time I heard of it was story about Robert Johnson's fight vs spitXIV...guns cold of course . he beat him 1 vs 1 in a T&B fight using that move...he said it was move that he used for most of his kills.

My understanding is you roll away and apply down elevator (push stick forward) at same time con breaks. The P47 out rolls everything so he set early...elevator authority enough to push nose through..he called it "stuffing it into the corner". The way it's described I dont see the seperation of a lag roll...but again i'm not familiar with the move. If you see me in TA can we go fly a few??



[This message has been edited by humble (edited 05-03-2000).]

[weazel]

 I use it all the time in 190,have shown several students this move. You can square off corners in it very well,I usually go into with a nose up attitude to avoid losing too much altitude,roll away from cons break turn and kick hard rudder to stuff it into the turn.

[leonid]

humble,
I think Dingy is right, that it is a lag displacement roll.  It allows fast-rolling planes to 'cut the corner' on their turns.  By pushing the stick forward while rolling the aircraft 'sets up' for a turn in the direction opposite the roll.  The main purpose of the lag displacement roll is to improve the turning ability of fast-rolling aircraft.

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leonid, Komandir
5 GIAP VVS RKKA

"Our cause is just.  The enemy will be crushed.  Victory will be ours."

[humble]

Thanx for feedback guy's,


weazel, since you know/understand what I described, is it a lag displacement roll?

I'm really not sure, I tend to use roll rate in a more limited way since coming here. Obviously, this is an area I have a lot to learn about. Couple question's?

1) What Dingy described seems to be two roll's...away and then back to con, correct or not?

2) Weazel, from what I recall reading, the key element involves pushing stick forward as you roll away from break turn, do you also do that?...also top or bottom rudder?

[Dingy]

 

What Dingy described seems to be two roll's...away and then back to con, correct or not?

No not at all.  Its really a single, slow 300 degree roll away from the direction of the bogies break.  As you roll up and away and have completed about 210 degrees of roll (you are inverted and beginning to roll back towards your prey) you begin a bit of forward pressure on the stick to push the nose back towards the target and finish your move now banked towards the target with back pressure on the stick.  

Wish I could demonstrate what Im talking about Humble...if I see ya in the TA I will show ya.  Rather than two separate rolls think of it as more of a barrell roll.

-Ding

[humble]

hehe, I know the feeling Dingy, I appeciate the last post. Helps me to visualize a bit better. when we meet in TA lets fly a couple.

thanx again

[LLv34 Nattulv]

Could the trainers make films of this manouvers and then post them on a site for download? Films like this on the basic and advanced ACM for diffrent a/c would be a great thing.

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Nattulv
2.Lentueen Päällikkö
Lentolaivue 34
"Olen vapaaehtoinen ruotsalainen lentäjä"

[air_spro]

Here is a link to what you guys are talking about , at least I think so that is !
 http://www.combatfs.com/warbirds/psiico/tactics.htm

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air_rules = Play fair ....Don't worry about points......Keep a sense of humor......Drink Jim Beam......and don't let the fediddlein cat walk on the keyboard.......!!!
 

air_squadron

[This message has been edited by air_spro (edited 05-03-2000).]

[Dingy]

Yup...that link that you posted Air_Spro is the move I was talking about.  Shaw calls it a lag displacement roll.

-Ding

[humble]

Yup, I read it in a reprinted chapter from Johnstons book...don't know what he called it there...but "vector" roll is what seems to come to mind...think he was talking bout lift vector somehow...anyway thanx guys...gonna fool with it some..i'll try and film em in case I get one right

[Jekyll]

Actually, the lag displacement roll Shaw talks about is a slightly different maneuver.

The LDR is used at relatively high angle-off-tail (more than about 40 degrees), where a high yoyo maneuver wouldn't work too well.

Pull lead on the bogey, enter a gentle zoom climb, and start a barrel roll opposite to the direction of your initial turn.  You will be able to keep the bogey in sight as you barrel roll above him.  Wait till he passes beneath you, and pull down onto his high 6.

The 'vector roll' was used in low AOT situations.  Although the move is often attributed to Johnson, his book does not really mention THAT maneuver at all!

He talks about 'skidding' his aircraft away from the bandit's turn, whilst rolling 90 degrees towards the bandits break - then pulling hard inside the turn.

What I think he was actually doing was skidding the aircraft slightly away from the initial flight path, allowing him to cut inside the turn even though the P47 had a larger turn radius than the 109.  By skidding his aircraft he is displacing his flight path laterally - then drive to the corner, pull hard and bingo!

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C.O. Phoenix Squadron
http://www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm
'feel the heat .......'

[easymo]

 This is funny. Ive been doing this since my ACA days. I didnt know it was a real move. Even has a name.

[Hangtime]

Hmmmm... I've always called it a 'roll-away'. Used and timed right it sticks me where he can't see me, minimizes my e loss while his is high, gives me enuff seperation to delay the chips being cashed outright while follwing his break and no matter what the guy does; he's toast if he's tryin to manuver. Defense against the rollaway is NO turn.. extend.

FW's hate it when I use it on 'em.  

Hang