Author Topic: ACMs or Gunnery (Read 5972 times)

streetstang · « **Reply #120 on:** January 25, 2005, 10:32:07 AM »

blah blah blah...

With out ACM you have no gunnery. There is no need for it without ACM. Almost all of you have completly over looked that one simple fact.

Air Combat MANEUVER.

How do you think that gun sight gets to where it does?

Im all done after this. Becuase if you dont get it by now, you never will.

I look at ACM as a race to an imaginary finish line with another plane. Where at the end shooting the other plane down is secondary to beating it to that finish line.

megadud · « **Reply #121 on:** January 25, 2005, 10:37:55 AM »

your right morph ACM is more important, BUT!!!!!

If i would have had better gunnery I would have shot you down twice!! they were cheryy picks but still i shoulda had you!

THE megaSTUD

dedalos · « **Reply #122 on:** January 25, 2005, 10:41:01 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by streetstang
blah blah blah...

With out ACM you have no gunnery. There is no need for it without ACM. Almost all of you have completly over looked that one simple fact.

Air Combat MANEUVER.

How do you think that gun sight gets to where it does?

Im all done after this. Becuase if you dont get it by now, you never will.

You are still missing the point. No one is talking about using 0 ACM. Yes the gun sight get where it gets by using manuvering. However, when you are in a spit V and I am in a KI61 or worse in a 190, I am only going to get 1 or 2 snap shot opportunities on you, hoppefully lol (using ACM to achieve that). If I don;t kill you I am dead (unless I run but that would not be ACM right?). I can't count the times that I totaly out flew some one only to die since I could not finish the job and at the end the better plane won, ran out of ammo, or his friends showed up. Unless you define ACM as moving the stick in which case you are 100% right.

dedalos · « **Reply #123 on:** January 25, 2005, 10:42:59 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by megadud
ACM

The ones that say Gunnery say it because they have bad ACM.

THE megaSTUD:D

Yep, you have it all figured out.

streetstang · « **Reply #124 on:** January 25, 2005, 10:47:00 AM »

We're talking about the importance of ACM over Gunner & vice versa...

Yes? Yes...

ACM beats gunner on importance any day of the week and twice on sunday.

How do I know this?

In a fight, I will work my way to a shot. I'll miss that shot so I'll imediatly start working for another shot. So on an so forth.

I've read along in this thread all the while listening to how with out good gunnery you can't survive. Thats nothing but a fairy tale. You work for a shot, if you dont make it, ACM will take over once again and you work for the next shot.

I know what gunnery is, yes its important, but its a very distant second in line with ACM.

dedalos · « **Reply #125 on:** January 25, 2005, 10:52:18 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by streetstang
We're talking about the importance of ACM over Gunner & vice versa...

Yes? Yes...

ACM beats gunner on importance any day of the week and twice on sunday.

How do I know this?

In a fight, I will work my way to a shot. I'll miss that shot so I'll imediatly start working for another shot. So on an so forth.

I've read along in this thread all the while listening to how with out good gunnery you can't survive. Thats nothing but a fairy tale. You work for a shot, if you dont make it, ACM will take over once again and you work for the next shot.

I know what gunnery is, yes its important, but its a very distant second in line with ACM.

Well, you are 100% right. My only argument is that in the MA you will live longer if you did not miss the first shot. And the reason you live that long is because you don't miss the first shot. That gives you the oportunity to use ACM and SA to avoind the next bad guy and work on someone else. If you did miss 2 or 3 times, you would be giving people too many cherry pick oportunities.

streetstang · « **Reply #126 on:** January 25, 2005, 11:00:12 AM »

Yup, fast kill's mean less risk of getting tangled up with multiple cons in a single engagment.

But when you are engaged by multiple cons, without ACM you may as well roll over and die.

dedalos · « **Reply #127 on:** January 25, 2005, 11:08:58 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by streetstang
Yup, fast kill's mean less risk of getting tangled up with multiple cons in a single engagment.

But when you are engaged by multiple cons, without ACM you may as well roll over and die.

lol, I am not arguing that. I may as well roll over and die when I am engaged by 1 con

streetstang · « **Reply #128 on:** January 25, 2005, 11:14:52 AM »

No I know your not and I should learn to be more clear when addressing certain groups of individuals.

Btw, I've met you 1v1, and you do anything but roll over and die.

Grits · « **Reply #129 on:** January 25, 2005, 11:29:07 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by dedalos
Well, you are 100% right. My only argument is that in the MA you will live longer if you did not miss the first shot.

This is why I say gunnery over ACM. Im average in ACM, maybe above average on a good day, but when my gunnery is off im horrible no matter how well I'm flying. When my gunnery is "on" I can usually take on 2-3 and hold my own because I can quickly turn it into a 1 vs me. Guys like Morph, Levi, Shane and others of that level I think dont really appreciate how much better their gunnery is than the average player. Shane always talks about how poor his gunnery is, and its just not so when compared to the average player, maybe its not as good as Levi's but its head a shoulders above us regular folks. Sure, those guys always outfly me, but they MAKE those low percentage shots that 90% dont make, and thats what separates them from the herd IMO moreso than their obvious ACM advantage.

dedalos · « **Reply #130 on:** January 25, 2005, 12:44:39 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by streetstang
No I know your not and I should learn to be more clear when addressing certain groups of individuals.

Btw, I've met you 1v1, and you do anything but roll over and die.

Ah, yes, I remember. Was it when you were down low with only BBs and no fuel? lol

Kweassa · « **Reply #131 on:** January 25, 2005, 01:24:05 PM »

Quote

But when you are engaged by multiple cons, without ACM you may as well roll over and die.

What "ACM"? The only "ACM" against multiple cons in a bad looking situation I see around, even with the case of super aces, is:

1) run away if with superior speeder
2) climb away if with superior climber
3) partial extension so only one or two follow, and get them one by one
4) buy some time with basic evasives until the cavalry arrives

The rest of the multiple engagement situations with about equal numbers can be solved with simple teamwork and basic maneuvering:

1) watch each other's rear ends
2) lots of check6s and communication
3) don't do stupid stuff like going into an all-out maneuverung contest, dragging rest of your friendlies down to deck with you, so all of them die with you when enemy reinforcements arrive

Real ACM only happens later, when your side already have succeeded in significantly cutting down enemy numbers, so friendlies have a local numbers advantage for a short time -> in this case, some ACM starts, usually in competition against your own friendlies to gain the kill first.

Otherwise you're using the term "ACM" in a very wide sense which would be really more close to BFM than a real, all-out "combat maneuvering".

Murdr · « **Reply #132 on:** January 25, 2005, 04:49:56 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kweassa
What's so scary about guys like Levi, Fester, Drex? Oh sure, these guys could (and maybe would) say that they personally think ACM is more important. But that's really totally irrelevant. On the receiving end, how these guys fly the plane is frankly nothing special at all. It doesn't matter if its a n00b or a super-ace, or how they fly their plane, when somebody is already lacthed on.

Heh, the MA is littered with the wrecks of those who actually saddled up, or tried to gang those guys. Though I wouldnt put myself in their catagory, many a pilot have went down after starting on my 6. How does that happen without acm?

Quote

Originally posted by streetstang

ACM beats gunner on importance any day of the week and twice on sunday.

How do I know this?

In a fight, I will work my way to a shot. I'll miss that shot so I'll imediatly start working for another shot. So on an so forth.

I've read along in this thread all the while listening to how with out good gunnery you can't survive. Thats nothing but a fairy tale. You work for a shot, if you dont make it, ACM will take over once again and you work for the next shot.

I know what gunnery is, yes its important, but its a very distant second in line with ACM.

I agree completely.

streetstang · « **Reply #133 on:** January 25, 2005, 05:34:17 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kweassa
What "ACM"? The only "ACM" against multiple cons in a bad looking situation I see around, even with the case of super aces, is:

1) run away if with superior speeder
2) climb away if with superior climber
3) partial extension so only one or two follow, and get them one by one
4) buy some time with basic evasives until the cavalry arrives

The rest of the multiple engagement situations with about equal numbers can be solved with simple teamwork and basic maneuvering:

1) watch each other's rear ends
2) lots of check6s and communication
3) don't do stupid stuff like going into an all-out maneuverung contest, dragging rest of your friendlies down to deck with you, so all of them die with you when enemy reinforcements arrive

Real ACM only happens later, when your side already have succeeded in significantly cutting down enemy numbers, so friendlies have a local numbers advantage for a short time -> in this case, some ACM starts, usually in competition against your own friendlies to gain the kill first.

Otherwise you're using the term "ACM" in a very wide sense which would be really more close to BFM than a real, all-out "combat maneuvering".

LOL yeah right. If you had a clue what you said here I'd be impressed.

Stang · « **Reply #134 on:** January 26, 2005, 12:09:16 AM »

I really think they go hand in hand. If you have great acm's you will get shots that are relatively easy to hit, and if you are great at gunnery you can mow guys down at rediculous angles. However, unless you catch a guy unaware or get him in the first pass, acm is what will get the job done. Again, being a great shot is good but if you have excellent acm you only need average aim. If you have excellent gunnery, you still need decent or above average acm to even bring these skills to bear.

In my case, I was always a very good shot even when I was a noOb, but lacked prowess in the acm department. However, what I lacked in acm I more than made up for in agressiveness and that paid off a lot by getting me on more guy's 6's than not. I never really studied or knew what acm was what, I more or less found out what worked and what didn't through trying things out. Guys would describe different moves to me and what they were called and I'd be like "Oh, that's what that is? hehe I do that but didn't even know that's what it was." Flying in KOTH starting about two years ago is what showed me what real acm was and took my flying to the next level. I'd just never seen guys do what Wldthing, BigMax and other great pilots do because frankly there aren't enough of them in the MA to run into to see what a plane can really do. Seeing that kind of stuff and having to deal with it and learn to beat it made the jump for me. Pure aggressiveness gets the job done 99% of the time in the MA since most guys you face don't know their way out of a wet paper bag, but to down that top 1% you have to have great acm's, just having great aim won't get it done.