Author Topic: For Real Pilots  (Read 1831 times)

Offline StarOfAfrica2

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« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2005, 05:34:50 PM »
I dont have measurable time in anything yet.  Except ultralights.  And while we may not have all the fun features and fancy guages of a full sized airplane, the fundamental aspects of flight are the same.  

I can tell you as a witness exactly what happens when the tail comes off of an ultralight while it's flying.  The lift produced by the wings sends the nose up, the rearend crashes into the ground, and the plane crumples and tumbles.  Of course, this assumes forward motion to provide lift from the wings, I have no idea what would have happened had he been stalled when the accident happened.

An acquaintance of mine was bringing his bird in for a landing, and he didnt scope out things properly.  Downdraft caught him, and as he tried to correct his tail smacked into a high tension powerline.  It ripped off his stabilizers and most of his rudder.  

Now I admit, being pushed around by that downdraft, he was probably hauling back like mad on the stick when the accident happened, that could have affected the outcome.  Obviously, as I mentioned earlier, stall speed could have brought on a different reaction as well.  I'm not a student of aeronautics.  Matter of fact, I'm not a professional anything when it comes to flying.  Its a hobby, and one I love.  I'm not posting here to argue with any of your theories or ideas.  Just providing some info from an accident I witnessed that fits the original question.  

Thanks.

Offline jigsaw

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« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2005, 06:02:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by icemaw
Try this test of the nose pitch up. Buy a balsa wood glider. Assemble and fly note results. Then remove tail and fly again note results. Post back with findings.


I was thinking something along those lines. See if I could find a cheap RC plane or someone with one. Rig a big firecracker to the empannage and see what happens.

Offline Casca

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« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2005, 08:51:30 PM »
The ultra light situation is a special case.  If we look at a representation of pressure distributions on a generic asymetrical airfoil under various conditions it can possibly illuminate the discussion.

The first picture illustrates pressures on various parts of the foil and is helpful in visualizing whence the negative pitch moment arises:


As a matter of convenience we can resolve the forces acting on the wing as a single lift vector and negative moment around the aerodynamic center  Moment is just another word for torque.  A negative moment is counter clockwise and assumes that we are looking at the left side of the foil.  This equates to pitch down:


In the following sequence we can watch the change in pressure distribution from zero lift (-3 degrees AoA for this foil)



Through a typical cruise AoA:



To somewhere in the vicinity of CL Max:



Correction:  The aerodynamic center is the theoretical point at which the wing responds to the moments acting upon it.  It does not move with changes in AoA.  The Center of Pressure is what is moving.

Although the Cp is not depicted you can see some things happening as we approach CL Max.  One thing is that the Cp is moving forward. Under certain conditions it might be possible for the Cp to actually overtake the CG.  Although we are looking at the wing in isolation this would be the Cp of the system.

It is therefore possible to lose the tail and have the aircraft pitch up.  As HiTech said (and I agree) the CG merely has to be behind the Cp of the system.

If you do the balsa glider experiment it will pitch down if you throw it normally however if you keep launching it at progressivly  higher angles of attack you can eventually get it to pitch up.  Keep in mind that it would be hard to describe the airfoil on a balsa glider as asymetrical and you are entering the land of flat plate theory where I don't tread.

However, my earlier statement: "When the horizontal stabilizer departs a normally loaded conventional aircraft in the normal flight envelope it pitches down violently etc." is valid unless you consider angles of attack approaching Cl max as part of the normal flight envelope.  You can't get the aircraft to anywhere near Cl max at speeds appreciably in excess of Va without waving goodbye to an important part of the aircraft structure.  If you get the thing slow and greasy and yank back on the stick just before smacking a wire all bets are off.

I guess I flinch when HiTech says "Planes can be perfectly stable with the horizontal stab producing up or down force."  While technically correct I can't think of an instance where there is not neutral to downforce at the tail in unaccelerated cruise flight.  Flying an airplane around with the tail holding you up is possible but not a good idea.

Several years ago we were giving glider rides to Boy Scouts.  I had several chunky scouts and the last scout of the day was a little tiny scout.  I was too lazy to walk across to get the 25 pound ballast bar that was supposed to be installed for small people.  The tail of the glider (SGS-233) would not come up during the takeoff roll and about the time I was reaching for the release to abort we became airborne.  Once we had enough airspeed things were peachy it was in fact "perfectly stable".  The landing was interesting in that as we bled speed in the flare I had to apply progressive forward stick and had it maxed out to the stop at touchdown.  Needless to say that flying any slower would have resulted in an unrecoverable pitch up followed by a probably unrecoverable stall followed by waking up in a tube of light with the tiny scout and Elvis.

Apologies for the length of this post.  I'm going to find something constructive to do with my time. Honest.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2005, 05:56:23 PM by Casca »
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Offline Meyer

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« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2005, 10:01:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
 

Did any other planes in WWII have a trimmable stabilizer?

     


AFAIK the Fw190 and the Bf109... and  maybe some other german plane.

Offline Badboy

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« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2005, 10:20:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Casca
Under certain conditions it might be possible for the aerodynamic center to actually overtake the CG.


Yep, particularly if, due to a bug, the position of the CG doesn't move forward when the tail comes off, that might explain it.

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Offline Straiga

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« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2005, 10:44:38 PM »
Thanks for all the info guys.

But I think were missing the major point here.
In order to have a CG (Center of Gravity)we need have a complete airplane there. Now when the tail gets shot of you will no longer have a CG. But say we have a aft loaded CG and then we lose the enpennage, I cant amagine the CG being heavier than the tail section weight missing.

If the CG is aft on the CL the tail plane will not need to produce as much lift downward. But as airspeed changes so does the amount of lift the horizontal stabilizer produces. In either fact the tail is still providing balance. Remember the horizontal stabilizer is set on conventional airplanes to produce lift downward not upward.

Now remember that when the main wing is in a high angle of attack the tail plane is producing lift downward to get the main wing into a high angle of attack. So now shoot the tail off and watch the nose pitch down.

Airplanes like heaveys like have a little aft cg to keep the drag down from the tail plane. But the tail plane always produces lift downward. The amount of lift will very do to CG and airspeed,and angle of attack of the main wing.

The horzontal stab main function is to put the main wing into different angles of attack or balance is it not.

We all know that the center of pressure moves forward and aft along the main wing (for a given airspeed and angle of attack)so at any time CG can be forward or aft of the CP.

Most CG ranges are not all that big they are confind with in the fuselage.

We have two King Airs we fly the E90 pitches up its always aft CG loaded but the 200 it really pitchs down with a T Tail

The pitching up or down is dependent on airspeed, the amount of prop wash across the tail plane, CG location, and type flaps used, and wing plane form. Also is the gear down or up.
But for a general discussion shall we say an average airplane will pitch down with flaps.

Im not just a pilot I also have an aeronautical engineering degree. Pilots do get a limited knowledge, but pilots have the flight experience that others dont have. The more time you spend flying in different airplanes you learn from training how that airplane will fly. I think if you did not have a degree in aeronautics, pilots would have a bigger advantage about how airplanes fly even more so with high time pilots. Engineers have no idea how there airplanes will react until the test pilot tells them.

The horzontal stab main function is to put the main wing into different angles of attack or balance is it not.

Straiga

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2005, 10:54:47 PM »
Quote
AFAIK the Fw190 and the Bf109... and maybe some other german plane.


I know the FW190 does.  Got the minutes of a meeting between Kurt Tanks design team and several of the JG pilots.  In it they discuss the trim motor gearing.  Thanks for the help.  I was wondering if any other WWII fighters used it.  Seems a good way to keep your elevator effectiveness.

Crumpp

Offline Badboy

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« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2005, 11:20:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Straiga
In order to have a CG (Center of Gravity)we need have a complete airplane there. Now when the tail gets shot of you will no longer have a CG.

Just to clarify that point, the centre of gravity is a physical property of any body, it doesn’t matter how much of the aircraft is left behind it will always have a centre of gravity somewhere. The centre of gravity should move forward the instant the tail is lost.

Casca has only reminded us how the aerodynamic centre moves forward and he suggests that it might be possible for the aerodynamic centre to move in front of the centre of gravity causing a nose up pitching moment. I agree, but think that is generally unlikely, but I know it can happen to the P-51 under certain conditions. Even so, when the tail comes off, the centre of gravity should move forward instantly, keeping it forward of the aerodynamic centre and maintaining a nose down pitching moment.

I was just pointing out that if there was a bug in the flight model that meant the centre of gravity remained where it was even with the tail gone, that would cause the aerodynamic centre to be in front of the centre of gravity resulting in the nose up pitching moment we see. So I think that is a plausible explanation.

Just to temper this with reason, once the tail comes off, the fights over, the pilot’s dead… should we really worry too much about the contortions of the wreckage :)

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Offline Furious

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« Last Edit: January 04, 2005, 12:56:26 AM by Furious »

Offline jigsaw

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« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2005, 02:25:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Straiga


Im not just a pilot I also have an aeronautical engineering degree.
 


Hey Straiga, wanna be my tutor when I get around to my advanced aerodynamics class?

Offline Straiga

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« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2005, 03:17:34 AM »
Well we put it to the a test.

Im here a flight safety international going through recurrent training. These are FAA approaved simulators here, some sims are boxes that sit on the ground and give you visuals and some are full motion sims.

We tested 3 sims one was a Gulfstream V a twin executive jet. One was a King Air 350 a twin engine low wing turbo prop with T tail. The other was a Pilatus PC-12 single engine turbo prop a low wing with T tail. Now what we did is that we told the computer to disregard the horzontal stabilator and elevator on these planes, like they were not even present. We set the planes in a cruise configuration and during the flight we moved the cg forward and backwards and then took the HS away (not the hole tail section) from the airplane to see what would happen.

The G-V, cruise Mach .89 at at 46,000 ft aft Cg limits. It pitched nose over to 55 degrees lost over 5000 ft in seconds.

G-V, mach .89 at 46,000 forward most CG, it pitched down to 120 degrees and broke up.

G-V short final 500 ft agl 140 kts in the landing configuration, (no slats, Full flaps) pitched over crashed in seconds.

B-350 cruise 20,000 ft. aft CG location 320 indicated nosed over after a 1/2 sec to 40 degrees then pitched straight down in a matter of seconds to mother earth.
Short final 500 agl 120 indicated landing configured, it pitched over nose down and crashed.

Pilatus PC-12 same thing.

3 different airplanes. Conclusion what we noticed was with an aft CG location it did not violently nose over but it still did.

It was explain to me by the sim engineer that when GC is aft it just reduces the amount of lift the HS (also less Drag) has to produce. But the HS still is produces lift downward, the HS would have a negative angle of attack or reduced lift due to the aft CG. The HS is nothing more than wing turn upside down. So trimming the elevator down would need to be used in this instance with an aft CG. Trimming the elevator down or up is going to increase or decrease lift on the HS.

So I asked, what if we took of the hole enpennage away what would happen. Everthing would happen even faster with out the mass of the tail section attached.

So this peak the interest of the sim engineer and he said he would check out AH and see what he thought of the aerodynamic modelling, who better than a sim man himself.

Jigsaw, do you really want me to tutor you I havent open a book in over 27 years.

Straiga
« Last Edit: January 04, 2005, 10:23:50 AM by Straiga »

Offline hitech

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« Reply #41 on: January 04, 2005, 09:54:37 AM »
Jigsaw: With Straiga as your tutor you would definatly fail.

HiTech

Offline Casca

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« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2005, 09:55:51 AM »
Interesting post Straiga.  The only results that really surprise me is finding out that the G-V is faster than the SR-71.

Just kidding.  I know what you meant.
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Offline Straiga

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« Reply #43 on: January 04, 2005, 10:22:20 AM »
Whoops it should be .89 mach sorry. I will change it.
Thanks Casca, some would not have figured is out anyway. LOL

I forgot more than some will ever know. 12 th in my class.

Quote
Look at it this way lets take a full loaded Me-109G and balance it on the head of a pin so its level this is the center of gravity. This could even be the aft CG limit. Then put the landing gear down and the CG moves forward and the nose points down. Now cut the enpennage off about about 4 ft. ahead of the vertical stabilizer now what happens the plane noses way over and way out of balance. Now how does this happen?


Straiga
« Last Edit: January 04, 2005, 12:07:19 PM by Straiga »

Offline Cobra412

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« Reply #44 on: January 04, 2005, 06:51:20 PM »
Flight simulators will never be perfect representations of how an airframe will react to any given situation.  Perfect example is the F-15I that lost a whole right wing due to a mid air collision.  

The designers of the airframe had tested that scenario out over and over in their simulator and said it was not possible at all.  In ever test they tried on their simulator they could not replicate what the F-15I had done and swore it could never be done.  That was until the Israelis produced the photos of the F-15I missing it's whole right wing.  Just because it is tested on a "simulator" does not mean it is a 100% guarantee that it is correct.