Author Topic: how can we imprison people without evidence?  (Read 2448 times)

Offline Yeager

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how can we imprison people without evidence?
« Reply #75 on: January 04, 2005, 12:55:31 AM »
gscmholtz is a putz.  Plain and simple.
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline Torque

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how can we imprison people without evidence?
« Reply #76 on: January 04, 2005, 02:04:00 AM »
Chuck, i thought you were Christian not Jewish.

Offline Hooligan

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how can we imprison people without evidence?
« Reply #77 on: January 04, 2005, 09:14:39 AM »
Nashwan:

Thanks for the links.

The US considers these prisoners "unlawful combatants".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1754444.stm

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US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld described them as "unlawful combatants" with no rights under the Geneva Conventions....


Also see the following link:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0711-07.htm

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The claim Wednesday came six months after the first shackled detainees from the US war on terror were flown to the US naval base at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba where 534 men from 39 countries are now being held in a state of legal limbo.


This was from a fairly old article but note the part about "men from 39 countries".  Clearly some of these prisoners do not qualify as:  

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Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms.


Of all the combatants taken prisoner by the US in Afghanstan this small subset was selected and classified as "illegal combatants".  Do you think it is possible they were selected for a reason?

Hooligan

Offline Airhead

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how can we imprison people without evidence?
« Reply #78 on: January 04, 2005, 09:24:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hooligan


Of all the combatants taken prisoner by the US in Afghanstan this small subset was selected and classified as "illegal combatants".  Do you think it is possible they were selected for a reason?

Hooligan


Reason?!? They were selected because...(drum roll, please) Boosh is Evil!!

Cod but I crack me up.

:D

Offline Red Tail 444

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how can we imprison people without evidence?
« Reply #79 on: January 04, 2005, 09:31:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
I like the idea that this is actually a cover for a new power source that harnesses electricity from the spinning graves of our founding fathers.


whirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Offline Red Tail 444

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« Reply #80 on: January 04, 2005, 09:43:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
If your standing next to a AQ bastard, whether by accident or design, your loss will be a harsh but neccessary reality.


Yeager, I'll shed a tear for you afterthe USAF  bombs your house when they SUSPECT that allah-allah-oxsun-free lives right next door...



:confused:


Ummmm on second thought.....

Offline Martlet

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how can we imprison people without evidence?
« Reply #81 on: January 04, 2005, 09:55:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Red Tail 444
Yeager, I'll shed a tear for you afterthe USAF  bombs your house when they SUSPECT that allah-allah-oxsun-free lives right next door...



:confused:


Ummmm on second thought.....


Sure. When that happens.

Until then, we'll keep killing terrorists.

Offline Hooligan

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how can we imprison people without evidence?
« Reply #82 on: January 04, 2005, 12:48:56 PM »
Shultzie:

If you have any proof that these guys were not examined before any type of military tribunal in Afghanistan before they were classified perhaps you should provide it.

Hooligan

Offline Nashwan

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how can we imprison people without evidence?
« Reply #83 on: January 04, 2005, 01:29:25 PM »
Quote
The US considers these prisoners "unlawful combatants".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1754444.stm


The US is interested in finding a definition that allows them to treat the prisoners with total freedom. That doesn't mean it's correct or legal.

Note what the Geneva Convention says:

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Article 5

Where, in the territory of a Party to the conflict, the latter is satisfied that an individual protected person is definitely suspected of or engaged in activities hostile to the security of the State, such individual person shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present Convention as would, if exercised in the favour of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such State.

Where in occupied territory an individual protected person is detained as a spy or saboteur, or as a person under definite suspicion of activity hostile to the security of the Occupying Power, such person shall, in those cases where absolute military security so requires, be regarded as having forfeited rights of communication under the present Convention.


Article 5 clearly covers them. In fact, artiicle 5 was written just for such men. There's no ambiguity about it.

This is what the Red Cross has to say:

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Captured combatants must be granted prisoner of war status (POW) and may be held until the end of active hostilities in that international armed conflict. POWs cannot be tried for mere participation in hostilities, but may be tried for any war crimes they may have committed. In this case they may be held until any sentence imposed has been served. If the POW status of a prisoner is in doubt the Third Geneva Convention stipulates that a competent tribunal should be established to rule on the issue.


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Civilians detained for security reasons must be accorded the protections provided for in the Fourth Geneva Convention. Combatants who do not fulfil the requisite criteria for POW status (who, for example, do not carry arms openly) or civilians who have taken a direct part in hostilities in an international armed conflict (so-called "unprivileged" or "unlawful" belligerents) are protected by the Fourth Geneva Convention provided they are enemy nationals.

Contrary to POWs such persons may, however, be tried under the domestic law of the detaining state for taking up arms, as well as for any criminal acts they may have committed. They may be imprisoned until any sentence imposed has been served.


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Persons detained in relation to a non-international armed conflict waged as part of the fight against terrorism – as is the case with Afghanistan since June 2002 - are protected by Article 3 common to the Geneva Conventions and the relevant rules of customary international humanitarian law. The rules of international human rights and domestic law also apply to them. If tried for any crimes they may have committed they are entitled to the fair trial guarantees of international humanitarian and human rights law.


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What is important to know is that no person captured in the fight against terrorism can be considered outside the law. There is no such thing as a "black hole" in terms of legal protection.


That's the whole point. It's not that the US cannot capture, try and execute people who have committed illegal acts, or that it must give POW status to anyone it captures. Clearly many of them are not entitled to POW status (although they are entitled to have that status determined by a tribunal, not the  say-so of a politician)

What every detainee is entitled to is protection under the law. Every single detainee is covered by the law, just as a criminal is, and just like a criminal, the law allows for them to be held accountable for their actions.

Quote
This was from a fairly old article but note the part about "men from 39 countries". Clearly some of these prisoners do not qualify as:

    quote:
    Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms.


I wasn't suggesting they all do, or indeed that any of them do. I was just pointing out that because they were not in uniform does not automatically deprive them of POW status.

Note though that the convention says "inhabitants" of a territory, not citizens. It's perfectly possible for an American, Briton, Frenchman or Kuwaiti to be an "inhabitant" of Afghanistan.

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Of all the combatants taken prisoner by the US in Afghanstan this small subset was selected and classified as "illegal combatants". Do you think it is possible they were selected for a reason?


I think they were selected because the US believes they are more dangerous, or have more information, than the rest.

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #84 on: January 04, 2005, 02:00:56 PM »
red tail you are paranoid.  perhaps a private session with bill clinton and his cigar will get the ibbyjibbies out of your system.
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline Yeager

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how can we imprison people without evidence?
« Reply #85 on: January 04, 2005, 02:05:10 PM »
Im a agnostic torque but if it being a christian gets  under the skin of liberal dorks and commie dweebs you can call me JEEBUS!!!!!
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline Rude

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« Reply #86 on: January 04, 2005, 02:08:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld does not have the authority to declare anyone an "illegal combatant" according to the GC. The GC stipulates that the status of any prisoner must be determined by a competent tribunal ... I.E. a court ... and that all prisoners must be afforded POW rights until such a tribunal has found them guilty of violating the GC to such an extend to warrant they not be afforded POW rights.

Of course, if the USA do not recognise the GC, there is no law, and as such no "illegal combatants" either.


The fact that you and others seem to bleed for the one's vowing to kill us is telling. You always seem so quick and determined to condemn US actions, all from the soverign soil of Norway is it?

Any imprisoned and found benign will be freed....sometimes guilt by association is unavoidable.

Offline Martlet

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« Reply #87 on: January 04, 2005, 03:08:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz

People here see me as an anti-American for voicing my concern over this ... Not that I care ... However I am more concerned about how America is changing than how these individuals are treated.


No one cares about your concerns, nor the concerns of other America Haters.

Offline lada

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how can we imprison people without evidence?
« Reply #88 on: January 04, 2005, 03:54:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Martlet
Sure. When that happens.

Until then, we'll keep killing terrorists.


yeah yeah yeah .. and you will be surprised at next "like 9/11" event... .

Offline lada

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« Reply #89 on: January 04, 2005, 03:56:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
Im a agnostic torque but if it being a christian gets  under the skin of liberal dorks and commie dweebs you can call me JEEBUS!!!!!


lol men... did you try to saw this thing to your psychologist  ? :D