Author Topic: This move still work? (Read 1054 times)

Vudak · « **Reply #15 on:** January 07, 2005, 05:16:14 PM »

I use this move alot as well. It works great against most of the arena, but it flat out will not work against many too. It's fairly simple to counter without zooming straight up, *IF* you recognize that this is exactly what they are doing.

streetstang · « **Reply #16 on:** January 07, 2005, 05:17:24 PM »

ManeTMP's got some tricks up his sleeve. Alot of it has to do with just being a Muppet and being given Muppet Tallent. Then another part of it has to do with insane gunnery. Which is again, another Muppet asset granted only to Muppets.

I'll let Mane explain the rest.

How does it go Mane?

All Muppets are puppets but not all puppets are Muppets...?

Redd · « **Reply #17 on:** January 07, 2005, 05:33:15 PM »

What they said Howitzer and just to add something.

In a 1-1 against a High E plane, I've found I am actually a lot better off maneuvering them into a 6 oclock position rather than 12 oclock.

If you try to merge with them at 12 OC position there are 2 outcomes.

The lousy pilot takes a HO at you extends etc etc.

The good pilot will use his E advantage to BNZ you, and will control the fight.

If you position them at your 6 OC and basically get them to come to you , you can make them nearly equalize their Energy with yours, and using a form of the reversal you are talking about , you can often "force" someone to engage, who normally would not ie Bnzer

Have also found this is true when chasing faster planes, rather than chase them , turn away and get them to chase you. It's easier to kill them with a reversal than chase them all over the arena. Also you can use that to lead them away from their friends, rather than having them fly towards their friends.

I put together a note for someone recently with a few types of reversals and when I've found best to use which type , and some filmed examples. Send me a note Redd at bordernet.com.au if you want them

There's also some good film examples around the BBS.

SlapShot · « **Reply #18 on:** January 07, 2005, 05:39:40 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by streetstang
ManeTMP's got some tricks up his sleeve. Alot of it has to do with just being a Muppet and being given Muppet Tallent. Then another part of it has to do with insane gunnery. Which is again, another Muppet asset granted only to Muppets.

I'll let Mane explain the rest.

How does it go Mane?

All Muppets are puppets but not all puppets are Muppets...?

Count 'em dude ... 5 rollie-eyes ... just for you ...

streetstang · « **Reply #19 on:** January 07, 2005, 05:41:30 PM »

W000T Muppet pwn@g3!

And for my slappy!

Grits · « **Reply #20 on:** January 07, 2005, 06:27:38 PM »

I use that move a lot too, but for me at this point its purely a defencive/E-equalizer and not offensive like the really good guys do it. I use it exactly as Redd described to bring a much higer E enema down and equalize our E states. I also use it for those "Oh...chit, where did that FW190 d400 off my 6 come from?" moments to force an overshoot and missed shot.

I never seem, no matter how many times I do it, do be able to get a gun solution after they go by, but it works very well otherwise.

XtrmeJ · « **Reply #21 on:** January 07, 2005, 06:31:17 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by streetstang
ManeTMP's got some tricks up his sleeve. Alot of it has to do with just being a Muppet and being given Muppet Tallent. Then another part of it has to do with insane gunnery. Which is again, another Muppet asset granted only to Muppets.

I'll let Mane explain the rest.

How does it go Mane?

All Muppets are puppets but not all puppets are Muppets...?

It's in the sig.

You know he's right... right?

Redd · « **Reply #22 on:** January 07, 2005, 06:34:09 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Grits

I never seem, no matter how many times I do it, do be able to get a gun solution after they go by, but it works very well otherwise.

Flying mainly 50 cal planes, it's very hard to kill with that snapshot opportunity anyway, it's more about getting them to engage on your terms rather than theirs and gaining position/angles for a potential kill.

In a cannon plane - then yes a snapshot can kill.

streetstang · « **Reply #23 on:** January 07, 2005, 06:59:53 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by XtrmeJ
It's in the sig. You know he's right... right?

Pfffft... Palease, its a known fakt!

Tilt · « **Reply #24 on:** January 07, 2005, 07:31:47 PM »

Defensively I am lousey at this manouver and have to be very lucky to barrell roll to guns on.........my opponent has to have tried it ( a snap shot) at much lower e than he should have and/or have made some e sapping lead turn attempt at a spray and pray instead of side slipping with rudder for a tracking shot or he pulled out of his attack to early and i have still have e to spare.

Even then most times I end up rolled out pointing in the wrong direction having to pull to his 6.

Attacking this manouver I watch my speed very carefully....and often bait my opponent to commit to the full brake turn before pulling up........if he presents me with a ruddered shot I take it........because ruddered and side sliping my ac's attitude is near the horizontal in an ideal position to go neutral rudder then pull up and of course I can see him begin a roll (I think to make this work he has to start the roll early)

Also I do not pull to vert until I am sure I am out of guns range.........add a little kink to the angle to force him to add some elevator to his roll......... 45 degrees climb first check for his speed and any closure then if OK go vert and come round nice and smooth minimising his time to nose down for speed.........in an La (5 or 7 for me) thats a 3 g loop chopping throttle over the top to drop the nose........... if agin 38's or someone who is obviously happy flying at very low speeds fully flapped then watch for their nose going up early under me..........I just hang and wait for it to start to drop

rinse and repeat

In fact the biggest problem I have attacking this manouver is when my opponent knows its me..........and knows how poor my gunnery is................ then of course he simply never pulls the full manouver....he just starts it and converts to rolling scissors via an obvious barrel roll (with far less e loss). Chances are I fluff the shot and risk over shoot into his waiting guns.

Shane · « **Reply #25 on:** January 07, 2005, 08:14:45 PM »

yeah it works. timing is everything.

you may have to rinse wash repeat - at which point the guy bnz you will eventually run off.

Grits · « **Reply #26 on:** January 07, 2005, 08:52:08 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Redd
Flying mainly 50 cal planes, it's very hard to kill with that snapshot opportunity anyway, it's more about getting them to engage on your terms rather than theirs and gaining position/angles for a potential kill.

In a cannon plane - then yes a snapshot can kill.

Yup, problem is, as Shane said, its all in the timing and my timing is off. I can make 9 out of 10 guys miss me with that move, but I have yet to land even one hit on them after they go past. I think I might be waiting too long to make the "break" roll back into them, by the time I get guns around them they are already D400 or over. Anyway it works great for equalizing E and as a sort of "aggressive" defence.

Understanding this move was also something of an epiphany for me, in that it lead me to use the same idea in all kinds of other situations, like in the middle of a furball. Where before I would just pull harder to get angles, I have started to use roll instead. It's like a lightbulb went off and suddenly I could visualize in my head what I had seen guys do and thought was just nearly impossible I just didnt understand what exactly was going on.

I still dont make it all work out like I want to, but I feel like I have a much better picture in my head of what is going on and that is a huge advantage.

Cobra412 · « **Reply #27 on:** January 07, 2005, 09:41:30 PM »

Howitzer from what it sounds like that is a move I use quite often. Especially when I'm at a disadvantage and being bnz'd to death. I will try to maintain both alt and speed. As they come back in I'll turn into them and be slightly off angle left or right of their nose. Majority of the time they'll attempt to get me by rolling and coming down on me. When they do this they end up heading the same direction but slightly lower than me. They second I see that they'll be heading the same way I'll roll over into what should be their exit path of the bnz. I'll typically end up around D200 to D400 and may or may not get a shot off before they get out of range. I may have a film some where of that.

Howitzer · « **Reply #28 on:** January 09, 2005, 12:08:05 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Shane
yeah it works. timing is everything.

you may have to rinse wash repeat - at which point the guy bnz you will eventually run off.

That is pretty much it exactly. And Cobra hinted at this as well, but I think I pull the bank too hard then I'm unable to match the enemy's speed when I pull back on his 6, and most of the time he'll then go nose down and not look back. Need to keep practicing speed management in AH2, just seems different.

RedDg · « **Reply #29 on:** January 09, 2005, 01:12:16 AM »

Drex used to do that all the time in his Hellcat. Fun to watch