Lower con... any suggestions ?

[janneh]

I've found the most difficult situation for me is when I see a fast low con is executing a lead turn at 3 or 9 oc.
What can I do ?
If I keep my direction and perhaps pull little up, I'm dead.
If I turn to him and I don't die immediatly in HO, he pulls up with his better E and I'm in trouble again.

Any suggestions what to do ?

Thanks in advance !


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"Flying Finns"
Crazy finns flying for Bishops.
"Pannaan pärekoriin ja veretään pitkin torii, perkele!"

[This message has been edited by janneh (edited 01-31-2000).]

[Lephturn]

Well, it depends.  

Fist, I am assuming he has more energy than you do.  If you had more, you could just zoom up and watch him stall under you for an easy kill.  But in this case we'll assume he has a ton of speed, and so more E than you do.  You are higher but slow.  Plane type and altitude of this engagement will make a difference here.  If I'm in a 51 or a Hawg and somebody pulls this, I dive in their general direction (not directly at them though), usually a bit lower and to one side.  At about d1.2 I'll jink in some fashion to make 'em miss the HO, then dive to "rediculous speed" and get the hell out of there!  If the bogey tries to rev. and dive after you, he will need to come down to your alt at high speed to do so, and that will even the odds to some degree.  You will also gain decent separation at this point, so you can either run away or have enough room to reverse for a fight.

Now.. what if you are flying, say a 109F4?  Diving away at high speed is out, but chances are you have an accelleration and climb advantage over the bogey.  I'd use the same merge, but instead of a high-speed escape I'd go into a gentle fast climb (keep at least 200 IAS to be able to manuever) and watch the bogey.  Again you should have enough separation to judge E states and make some sort of move.  My evil plan would be to evade attacks, suck the bogey into a slow situation if possible to bleed E, and then climb at every opportunity.  Once the E advantage has been turned in my favor, it's lunch time.  

If you give me some plane types, I could give you more specific info.

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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs

[dolomite]

Agreed. This can be tough, especially against an F4U or Nikki.

I usually turn into them an climb over their heads in a way to force them to put turn into their climb. By forcing more control deflection I am making them bleed more energy. If I see they are getting the range too quickly I will reverse and dive with an immediate zoom. By this point (depending on the vertical separation at the beginning) I should have an E advantage.

Someone coming at you from below like this is taking a chance you won't see them or they don't mind getting HO'd. Either way it is pretty aggressive, and is a situation that can be turned against them (assuming you survive the first merge) easily.

[Firefox]

jenneh,
since you havnt stated how low or how fast, I will assume slightly low and lots of E.  You have two options.  Depending on how much lag/lead and speed he is pulling, try a nose low break in the same direction he is going.  Low nose break is dropping your nose about 5 degrees and executing a slowly increasing break at corner speed (about 200 - 250kts) with a hard break at the end.  This enables you to get some E that you need for the hard break and causes him to either A.  Blow E by yanking harder to get a lead shot or B over shooting cause he has lots of E and is not at corner speed.  Either way timed just right (about D700 - D800 again) do your hard pull on the stick and then a quick barrel roll back the opposite direction (IE your breaking right, barrel to the left (not SNAP Roll but a Barrel) should set you near or on his tail either way. I have successfully done this mucho times in the arena.  

The second is harder to do and less successfull if not done perfect,  As he turns into you initiate a Hard Hi Yo Yo except dont complete at the top,  Split S at the top only dont pull through all the way,  as you start vertical on your S Roll 180 degrees and pull out (you should be heading hte way you started.)

Gotta be timed just right the 2nd one does, I call that the Fox Shuffle and have used it for a long time as a last resort, but it works.

Let me know if you want a demo and if so let me know when Im on and I will demo it for you.

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Rick "Firefox" Scott
VMF-214 / MAG 11
AH ID: FirefxAT

[This message has been edited by Firefox (edited 01-31-2000).]

[Hristo]

Golden rule: The best way to beat a lead turner is speed disparity. If he is slow, you fly fast. If he is fast, slow down.

If a con tries to lead turn you from inital 3 or 9 oc position, it is pretty hard for him to get a shot too, unless you are very slow, or he is a snapshot killing Hog  

If he is low but with E high enough so you can't run away, I suggest you turn into him.

Since he attacks you from below, he is obviously an aggressive type. Fake a HO, he will take it most likely. Your intention is not to HO him, but to cross paths and have an option to bug out. Your turn into him should worry him a little. Try to go under him if possible, harder for him to shoot you, and maybe he even does a Split S   The closer you pass to him, the more danger of a snapshot, but also more chance he'd do a hard turn after and lose his E. He can choose now, either a HO or lead turn. Many aggressive types go for both.

Jink and avoid HO and extend. If he does E conserving reversal, you now have decent separation to return and attack or go home.

If he does lead turn after he tried the HO, one simple Immelmann should put him on defensive.


If he avoids HO and goes for lead turn, you have 2 choices:

9 out of 10 times I am substantially faster than the con. In that case I'd just turn towards him to make him cover even greater angle with even smaller turn radius in the lead turn, and usually jink a little to spoil his snapshot. He usually turns hard at this point, bleeding much E. After that I do very gentle zoom and Immelmann. Now he is on defensive.

1 out of 10 times the con is faster. In that case I nose down a little and turn in his direction since my turn radius is smaller. He continues his turn but overshoots. Meanwhile I time my own lead turn in vertical, and actually end on his six. Spits have a bad habbit of not changing their maneuvering plane, so they keep turning in almost horizontal. I have killed many Spits this way in 109G-10.

Better turners can still compensate for an overshoot in this case. Usually you both will meet coming opposite ways. Cross paths and extend, better turner is no good to tangle with in a co-E situation. With P-51 or 190 you can gain advantage from this point though.



[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 02-01-2000).]

[leonid]

janneh,
The preceeding comments from our esteemed collegues leave me with nothing additional to say.  However, I will elaborate on one aspect they all point to indirectly: make the enemy bleed more energy than you.  

I know there are some great 'instinctual' drivers out there, but I'm not one of them.  Therefore, I think all this out ahead of time.  In situations like you've put forth, it all depends on comparative energy states.  Should your opponent possess greatly superior energy, then the best bleed solution is to force them to make a 180, or even a 270.

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leonid
129 IAP VVS RKKA

[janneh]

Wow! Thanks for your replies.
After reading them I found out why can't I use same maneuver to lower con that I use to higher con.

1. I roll so that con is my top view
2. I keep con in my top view during approach.
3. When he's about 1.5 or so I roll left about 45° and pull stick (diving).
4. Immediatly after this, I start to roll back to right and after plane has wings about 45° to right I start to pull back up and climb with sharp angle, almost straight up.

Usually I lose sight to con, but if they followed my maneuver with their huge E I found them in my 6 view (numpad 3) lower than me. Then is about time to try kind of wingover to right and give some snapshots.
Certainly he burned lots of his E when following.
I'm not good to explain this, but when evading a higher con, it's almost "bullet-proof" maneuver.
I remember when I was executing this maneuver when Central was BnZ me (190) many times. It was fun, althought I died, <S>  

I recall I've read this kind of maneuver from Fighter Combat...

Any comments ?


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"Flying Finns"
Crazy finns flying for Bishops.
"Pannaan pärekoriin ja veretään pitkin torii, perkele!"

[Central]

S! Janneh,

Yes, Indeed it was a very fun fight. Lasted all of 10-15 mins??    Maybe more!