Speed Control joining a fight from above

[Sparks]

I am being a lot more careful about where I am in terms of my altitude in comparison with enemy cons and furballs etc. but this has led to a new problem. I frequently arrive vertically above targets with 3-5k showing on the range (so thats 9 - 15k ft yes?). I will try to identify the highest target and position to engage. However in the ensuing dive I will end up close to Vne (or above) even with the throttle closed and end up blowing through the fight without a shot and then having to pull up blacked out to avoid the ground. Now at 450+kts and nose up probably do an enormous loop looking in the up view for my now lost target in a vain attempt to re-engage. Several more barely controlled manouvres ensue until the speed has come down to a sensible level by which time the target has now become the targeter and my death is usually close.  All this must resemble an out of control cruise misile coming into a fight....
Can anyone explain the correct strategy for dealing with an embarressment of height and arriving in proper control with a good but controlled e advantage. I usually fly P51 or Spit 9.
Thanks

[popeye]

A couple of things:

Try a more shallow dive.  You'll still get fast, but won't blow as much E pulling up into the zoom.  Of course, you're target will have more time to respond, so there's a trade off.  This will work best in "target rich" environments.

Use manual trims to keep the plane under control as the speed increases.  This will keep the stick near center, and give more control with less tendency to black out.  Also, you can use manual trims to steer the plane somewhat.

You can dump a lot of E (especially in the Spit) by deliberately skidding the plane.  As you begin to get too fast, use the rudder to skid (or is it slip?).  This will affect directional control, but can be compensated.  It will also reduce the zoom, so you have to decide whether to go for the kill or make another pass.

popeye

[Lephturn]

Couple of things you can do.

First, use full slip.  Slip that baby as hard as you can and it will slow down, especially power off.  No prop drag is modelled yet AFAIK, so chopping throttle only keeps you from gaining as fast.    If you are slow enough or in a plane with combat flaps, you can use them to slow you as well.  The Hog can use it's gear as dive brakes under 300.

Second, and most importantly, plan your attacks better and be patient!  Especially in planes like the 51 and the Spit that hold E very well, you must try to plan your attacks very well.  First of all, you don't want to be coming down at a steep angle.  You will need to get some separation, dive at a shallow angle to just below the target, and attack from slightly below and as close to low 6 (blind spot) as you can get.  This takes practice, as you have to judge the enemy's E state, direction, etc. and plan much farther ahead in time than the typical knife fight.  It takes planning and timing, remember to judge him, gain separation, and attack from slightly below or at least a very shallow dive angle.

Third, use lag persuit.  There are three kinds of persuit, lag, pure, and lead.  Simply stated, lag means aiming at a point behind the bogey, pure means aiming right at him, and lead means aiming ahead of him at where he is going.  When we are in guns range, we need to use lead persuit to aim the bullets to where he will be when they get there.  We also use lead persuit to close on the bogey and get closer to him.  However, we are flying a fighter with more E and speed in this situation, so we want to minimize the closure rate so we have the best shot opportunity.  We do that by using lag persuit, aiming behind the bogey.  You can do some other things to keep your E and minimize closure like using barrel rolls and high yoyo's.  It's a hard habit to break if you are an experienced turnfighter, but when you have the greater speed, you need to use lag persuit to minimize that closure rate and allow the longest possible shot opportunity.

I hope this helps!

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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
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[Sparks]

Thanks to both  
I shall go and try and see how I get on - just keep your eyes peeled for grey or silver lawn darts  
Sparks

[humble]

I'd add one comment to the above thread...look at diving prior to vis or at max vis and leveling off slighty under highest con(S). Your total E state will be almost Identical but now you'll be transitioning up for the shot instead of down. you'll catch an occasional sleeper and be able to climb over fight as needed...with time you'll learn how to judge relative E state and 75% or more you'll be chopping throttle going up as you shoot..and rolling back in on same/second target...now just keep her firewalled till you have enough to zoom back on top...and start over.

[tshred]

Hiya Sparks! First of all, when you see a lower con, don't just dive for him. I usually start a gradual descent, get near the con and circle above him to lower speed, keeping about 250-300(P51 and P38) indicated, and watch his reactions, leveling off about 1-2k above him.

When I'm ready, I set up a 6 attack. You can fake a couple passes by diving and pulling up when about 1k away to see their reaction. A couple of fakes sometimes will get the same reaction from the enemy, ex. he always breaks one direction. If this is the case, when he's about to break or he does(which is usually about the same distance every time) pull up and hi yo-yo and descend back down on his 6 and blow him outta the sky. When you pull up to yo-yo, look back and keep an eye on him and adjust your attack accordingly.  The key to this is that you start your move while you are still above and behind him. Usually they will break when about d1.0 to d800 and that is when you start your hi yo-yo. If he is good at evading your shot opportunity, start your move a little earlier the next time. Try to anticipate where he will be, what he will do. This is easy if they use the same move every time, that's why a couple of fake attacks work well. It might take a few passes, so keep checking your 6 for hi enemys who might spoil your day, and use vertical manuevers to keep the alt. advatage and speed. Even tho he might not break the same direction everytime, as soon as you see him start his break, start your hi yo-yo and turn in the same direction. Keep and eye on your speed, and if you have scrubbed of to much E and are losing alt advantage, break off, get some alt and come back when ready again.

If the enemy does a split-s, start a zoom climb, extend and come back with alt to set up your attack again. The next time, attack with a little less speed, and follow him through split-s if confident enough to, but be carefull. I personally try not to follow them through a split-s unless I think I'm slow enough to track them for a shot without blacking out. Also you scrub E much faster when riding the edge of blackout(pulling to many G's) and you usually end up losing the speed/alt advantage if not carefull.

Sometimes the enemy will fake a spilt-s and roll back into you as you pass over him(fake attack). This is when I go vertical(P38 providing I have plenty of E left, same for P51) and watch him in rear view. If he throws bullets your way, adjust angle of attack to keep changing direction and avoid his shots, but keep going vertical. Now you have the typical 'rope a dope' situation. When you see him stop gaining on you or slowing down considerably, kick the rudder either way and hammerhead back down on him and shoot him down(when your airspeed is around 100mph or lower)! You might have to adjust your throttle while going vertical to slow down and get your timing to match when he runs out of E.

Another advantage of circling above while setting up your attack is that lots of the time they will try to climb at you for a shot. This is an ideal situation for you. Try to stay 1k above the enemy , and watch the distance counter, when it starts slowing down, he is losing E and aproaching stall. When he appears to be not gaining alt anymore, point the nose down and attack! Shoot him down while he is fluttering about like a leaf!

Don't forget you can use your flaps in the P51 or P38. At the top of my yo-yo's I dump 1 or 2 clicks of flaps to turn occasionally(when it gets tight and I need to turn quicker!), then retract them when diving down to get the speed back. Don't be afraid to use them.

Good luck!

ts

[Sparks]

Thanks humble and ts  
I think I see a lot better now - I am certainly attacking from too high and too steep. I thought I was being more patient but it would appear I need to be even MORE patient.
Questions - if you shallow dive on someone and they start to shallow dive away presumably you would break off and climb again - my thinking is if you follow them down in a shallow dive eventually you will equalise e state as their speed increases to match yours and you have blown your advantage.??
Second - if I dive in my Spit on a lower F4 or FW say - something with a higher top end performance than me - am I not risking him getting a good separation from me with the superior high speed perfomance then zooming back the speed to come back on me now coalt or even higher than me?
Third - I have trouble with the zoom performance of Niki's - are you safe with these manouvres in a Spit against a Niki if he dives to get a bit of e??

[Dingy]

 

Originally posted by Sparks:
if you shallow dive on someone and they start to shallow dive away presumably you would break off and climb again - my thinking is if you follow them down in a shallow dive eventually you will equalise e state as their speed increases to match yours and you have blown your advantage.??

Your on the right track.  If they dive away, sure they are gaining speed but since you are higher, you are too.  As long as the distance between you and the enemy is not too great, you should be able to catch up to them (provided the top end speed of the opponent is not higher than yours (see below).  Since you are on their six, you have the benefit of forcing them to react to your moves.  As you close within guns range, their only real option is to use a high G break to evade guns solution.  As they do this, they will burn more E than you if you then react with a low G maneuver like a high yoyo.  You can fake another high speed pass to force them defensive again.  What you are doing is trying to force them defensive multiple times until they have no E left to work with simpliufying your attack.

 

Second - if I dive in my Spit on a lower F4 or FW say - something with a higher top end performance than me - am I not risking him getting a good separation from me with the superior high speed perfomance then zooming back the speed to come back on me now coalt or even higher than me?

[/b]

You sure are.  You need to quickly decide whether or not you will be able to close on the faster plane by converting your alt to speed before hes able to safely gain separation.  If he has a lot of alt to work with, you probably wont be able to catch him so break off the attack and grab alt while looking for another opponent.

 

Third - I have trouble with the zoom performance of Niki's - are you safe with these manouvres in a Spit against a Niki if he dives to get a bit of e??

A good spit pilot with superior E over a Nik shouldnt have a problem (and I fly Niks all the time).  Patience is required as the Nik is going to try to force the overshoot and then hope for a crippling snapshot as the spit passes by.  I would suggest you close on the Nik using a shallow dive and wait for his break.  Once he commits to his break pull up and off to one side while watching him below you.  If he tries to point his nose up at you after the break, go straight verticle and watch him below ya.  Once he stalls out, rudder over and set up for your next shot.  The nik will try to dive down to gain speed giving you the chance to set up another pass.  As you have already found out, patience is key.  

-Ding

[Sparks]

Thanks for the great detailed reply Dingy - time to see if I can fly and think about all this at the same time or whether I'll suffer from WACGS (Walk And Chew Gum Syndrome) in the cockpit.

 
Sparks

[bloom25]

All good tips so far, but I thought I'd add another technique that works well.  If you have a HUGE E advantage over a con which breaks when you get close, try this:  Pull up and start a loop.  Roll your plane to keep the con in your top rear view.  Keep this rolling up as you come over the top and you will end up desending on the con again, pointed right at his 6.    In this way a 190 or Stang can effectively turn inside a spit or N1k.  I use this technique all the time for 1 vs 1 fights where I'm in a 190 or p51 flying against a good turning plane.  You'd be surprised just how easy it is to follow even the sharpest break turns with this technique.

Another benefit to this technique is that you lose very little E performing it.  Basically you are trading speed for alt, then diving back on the con for speed, repeating if he breaks again.  I've done this 5 times once against a n1k in a 190 before I finally beat him.  At the start of the fight I had 3k of alt on him and we were both at around 350 mph.

I would forget about this if their are cons above you as you can easily be killed at the top of your loop.



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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS

[Dingy]

 

Originally posted by bloom25:
All good tips so far, but I thought I'd add another technique that works well.  If you have a HUGE E advantage over a con which breaks when you get close, try this:  Pull up and start a loop.  Roll your plane to keep the con in your top rear view.  Keep this rolling up as you come over the top and you will end up desending on the con again, pointed right at his 6.    

Yup.  Basically you are doing the same thing as I outlined above Bloom.  Its just another maneuver to slow your plane down so your turn radius is smaller than the enemies.

 

I would forget about this if their are cons above you as you can easily be killed at the top of your loop.

Absolutely.  If there are cons above you, the lower plane should be your lowest priority.  Good SA assesses the situation from the top down meaning if there are higher enemy cons, they should be your first priority.

-Ding