Author Topic: Ta-152 is a little slow.  (Read 1670 times)

VWE

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Ta-152 is a little slow.
« on: January 16, 2005, 05:16:07 PM »
I upped a 152 in the CT last night and seeing that I owned the skies I did a little testing. At 41,010 feet the 152 should do 472 mph with wep, I let wep go till it ran out and as fast as it got was 451 mph.  I'm sure this has an effect on it at lower altitudes too, I filmed my test incase someone would like to see it. This plane feels sluggish, someone should look at  their data again on this one.

Offline Urchin

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Ta-152 is a little slow.
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2005, 06:07:55 PM »
Heh.. the 152's acceleration is so awful that you might have not even topped out with full WEP.

Try diving from above that height and see if it'll hold 470.

Offline whels

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Re: Ta-152 is a little slow.
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2005, 06:12:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by VWE
I upped a 152 in the CT last night and seeing that I owned the skies I did a little testing. At 41,010 feet the 152 should do 472 mph with wep, I let wep go till it ran out and as fast as it got was 451 mph.  I'm sure this has an effect on it at lower altitudes too, I filmed my test incase someone would like to see it. This plane feels sluggish, someone should look at  their data again on this one.



Maximum speed 332mph at sea level ( 350mph with MW 50 ), 465mph at 29,530ft. ( with
MW 50 ), 472mph at 41,010ft. ( with GM 1 ), 311mph cruising speed
at 22,965ft.


we dont have MW50 or GM1 so speeds might not match. our
WEP might simulate MW50 though.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Re: Re: Ta-152 is a little slow.
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2005, 06:40:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by whels

we dont have MW50 or GM1


Are you sure?

Offline Wotan

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Ta-152 is a little slow.
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2005, 08:45:43 PM »
Above FTH MW-50 isn't necessary to maintain maximum boost, the supercharger at above FTH is already losing power. All MW-50 does is cool the charge so that below FTH the airplane can run max power (all though limited) with out risk of detonation. Above FTH MW-50 still cools the charge but its not needed to prevent detonation.

Its not majic juice or something that 'burnt' like GM-1.

GM-1 has limited usefulness in that for the Ta-152 it could only be operated for short periods above 9000m (29527 mph).

I didn't know what 'wep' means for the TA-152 in AH. But they did pull down the first 152 chart and replace it with one that didn't show speed and climb to 40000ft. I believe if you search for a post or 2 by wilbus you will find those old threads.

In FB/AEP/PF the the Ta-152 has both MW-50 and GM-1, MW-50 for about 6000m and below and GM-1 for above 9000m. With GM-1 the Ta-152 is untouchable.

Offline Glasses

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Ta-152 is a little slow.
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2005, 10:46:29 PM »
Pyro did say back when  they were kicking this dead horse with charts  and official scheisse  about the Ta-152  pyro mentioned it had Gm1 and MW50 simulated .  It was concluded that most speeds matched with the H-0 than the H-1.

Offline Stang

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Ta-152 is a little slow.
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2005, 02:00:53 AM »
I'm pretty sure Wilbus already caught this yet nothing has been done about it.

Offline Flyboy

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Ta-152 is a little slow.
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2005, 03:56:42 AM »
wotan, can you explain what is GM-1 system\fuel\thingi and how did it work?

Offline straffo

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Ta-152 is a little slow.
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2005, 04:03:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wotan
GM-1 has limited usefulness in that for the Ta-152 it could only be operated for short periods above 9000m (29527 mph).


Me think we need a bigger arena :D

Offline MiloMorai

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Ta-152 is a little slow.
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2005, 04:19:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Flyboy
wotan, can you explain what is GM-1 system\fuel\thingi and how did it work?


Nitrous oxide injection.

You can get kits for your street car.

Offline Schutt

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Ta-152 is a little slow.
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2005, 06:05:27 AM »
Flight testing offline, setting fuel burn to 0.1 (10.0 between to burn it off):

with full fuel and no ammo (diving down then see which speed it can hold):

41010 feet 450mph with wep
29520 feet 452mph with wep

with 30gallons of fuel left, no ammo:

29520 feet 456mph with wep
120 feet 363mph with wep

at least on my tests. thats the version in ah 2.06

cya schutt

Offline Wotan

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Ta-152 is a little slow.
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2005, 06:51:34 AM »
FYI:

In FB/AEP/PF the Ta-152H-1 does

323mph @ SL @ 100% Power

419mph @ 31988ft @ 100% power

370mph @ SL @ maximum power (MW-50 + 110% throttle)

470mph @ 28707ft @ maximum power (GM-1 + 100% throttle)

at least according to IL2 compare.

Offline MOSQ

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Ta-152 is a little slow.
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2005, 01:35:29 PM »
I wouldn't care except that the TA-152 has a pretty heavy perk price. Way more than it is worth in performance.

Now a 370 mph 152 at sea level and 470 mph at 28K might be worth the perk cost.

Offline HoHun

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Ta-152 is a little slow.
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2005, 02:21:07 PM »
Hi Flyboy,

>wotan, can you explain what is GM-1 system\fuel\thingi and how did it work?

GM-1 was the German WW2 code-name for N2O (nitrous oxide, or laughing gas).

N2O can be added to the fuel-air mixture of an internal combustion engine. In the compression cycle, it's broken up into its components, releasing oxygen that can be used for combustion.

As the challenge of high-altitude flight mainly consists of getting enough oxygen into the cylinder to maintain adequate power - which due to the decreasing air density becomes more and more difficult at altitude - N2O equates to extra power.

In fact, N2O was injected into the supercharger in liquid form through small jets, and each jet gave a constant power boost when employed. Depending on the type, you might have a 120 HP jet and a 240 HP jet, which of course added 360 HP when used in combination.

That's the resason N2O was available in steps - you couldn't add 360 HP to an engine that was already running at close to full power, or the resulting forces would destroy vital parts of the engine.

This is the main reason N2O was preferred over pure oxygen, which could be (and experimentall, was) used for the same purpose - it just gave too much power.

The nitrogen share of the nitrous oxide has a benefit, too, since it absorbs some energy on being broken up in the cylinder, controlling the detonation and allowing higher pressure.

Since N2O is injected into the supercharger as a liquid, it also gives a charge cooling effect on evaporation (cooler air means more oxygen in the same volume).

Initially, N2O was stored under high pressure to keep it liquid (laughing gas, after all, is a gas under standard conditions), but that meant the N2O vessels blew up like a bomb on being hit, so from 1941/42 on it was stored at very low temperature in an insulated tank that kept the content at less than -90 °C for as long as the sortie lasted.

(It was used by bombers like the Ju 88 and by reconnaissance planes like the Ju 86 as well, so that could be quite a long time. For fighters at readiness on the ground in the hot summer sun, though, the insulation would not have sufficed and the N2O would have begun to boil out through the safety valve after a while.)

For comparison: 0.1 kg/s of N2O injection gave extra 300 - 400 HP, virtually out of nothing.

The only drawbacks were the weight of the system (which also included compressed air bottles to force the N2O out of the insulated tank), and - more importantly - the high rate of consumption. If 0.1 kg/s gave 350 HP, that made for a specific fuel consumption of 1000 g/HPh, which compares very unfavourably to the DB601A's normal 220 g/HPh at high power :-)

So, N2O was bad for range, but great for high-altitude power.

Oh, by the way, someone mentioned that N2O was to be used for short bursts only. According to what I have read, it could be used as long as it was available and in fact short bursts were to be avoided as filling and emptying the N2O lines took some time and created some engine management difficulties.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Oldman731

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Ta-152 is a little slow.
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2005, 03:35:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
GM-1 was the German WW2 code-name for N2O (nitrous oxide, or laughing gas).

That's certainly the best explanation of the process that I've seen, HoHun, thanks.

- oldman