So we never join WW2

[Saintaw]

Minus moved to the other side of the pond.

[Fishu]

So... germans and US becomes the US as we know the history and japanese begins to resemble the israelis trying to fight off manchuri... palestinians

[Suave]

The USSR possibly saved the west. Hitler realized that the USSR was going to attack, and did the only smart thing by preempting with an offensive of his own.

If Germany did not have an eastern front she would've been strong enough to invade Britain. And in doing so would've came into possesion of much invaluable research and researchers which would've allowed Germany to produce nuclear weapons before the USA.

Of course had there not been the Polish airforce, Germany would've most likely won the battle of britain. And then even an eastern front wouldn't have mattered.

[SuperDud]

LoL Chairboy, seriously good stuff! I once read a book(I think it was called Stars and Stripes...?). In it the british accidentally united the US during the civil war by accidentally killing some confederate soldiers and the US teams up and attacks the UK. The neat thing is I find what your writing just as interesting as that book. I have to agree with doobs, add some depth to it, get copyright and publish the bad boy! All I need is 10% of profits due to moral support:D

[Suave]

Threads like this demonstrate why the wwII flight sim community is without cerebral peer. Let us take a moment and bask in our superiority.

[Furball]

i love the way the british and her empire are portrayed as incompetent and weak without the US's help.

[lada]

Originally posted by GreenCloud

Would he try for USA..or just be happy killing all the jews and who ever ....over there..

woops i guess in africa too..

Hitler tries for US, his bombers had to turn back 300 km from US coast(or so) or  they couldnt make it home.
If they were kamikadze, US coast could be hit.

[Chairboy]

Originally posted by Furball
i love the way the british and her empire are portrayed as incompetent and weak without the US's help.

I figured that no matter how brave and competent they were, they'd be hard pressed to keep up the fight without the extra shipping & resources.  Fact is, the British army and navy were in poor condition at the beginning of hostilities.  If US assistance was limited to Lend Lease through 1941-1942 and then petered out, I'd guess the British juggernaut would be hard pressed to keep the machine going.

At that point, allying with the Soviet Union would start to make a lot of sense if the alternative is falling under the Nazi grip.

And for the record, MY country (the US) turns into a big ol' agrarian breadbasket and fades in relevancy.  I figured that the USA's successes in being a world superpower owe their roots directly to the disposition of WWII.  If the industrial machine had never activated, I doubt we'd be half the country we are today.

Anywho, just a fun excercise in extrapolation & fantasy.

[Furball]

Originally posted by Chairboy
I figured that no matter how brave and competent they were, they'd be hard pressed to keep up the fight without the extra shipping & resources.  Fact is, the British army and navy were in poor condition at the beginning of hostilities.  If US assistance was limited to Lend Lease through 1941-1942 and then petered out, I'd guess the British juggernaut would be hard pressed to keep the machine going.

The British still had the largest navy in the world when they went to war in 1939.  My opinion is that, if they couldnt have got the resources from the US they would have gotten them from somewhere else.

The only real threat to the Britain being knocked out (or maybe more appropriately, starved out) of WWII was the U-Boat.

As Churchill said '... the only thing that ever really frightened me during the war was the U-boat peril'

As for the supplies, yes we brought a lot from America, as the Americans were sympathetic to the British cause.... and always willing to make money - it was easy, if that wasn't available im sure we could have got them from elsewhere.

And, Britain had been an ally of Russia long before the second world war.

[patrone]

Originally posted by Furball

And, Britain had been an ally of Russia long before the second world war.

Oh, I always wondered why you let them take half of Poland without making any Fuzz about it.
And helping the Finns against them??.....great ally

[-tronski-]

Originally posted by Chairboy
Anywho, just a fun excercise in extrapolation & fantasy.

Interesting read...but I think your giving  the Nazi germany a twenty year head start to it's development. Economically I think a national socialist germany (even with it's newly increased resources and labour) would be facing an interesting future, much like they did immediately before the war when inflation was threating Reich economics.

Also Nazi "romanticism" post war could place immediate pressure on the remarkable developments of Reich  scientists during the real war.

Originally posted by Furball
The British still had the largest navy in the world when they went to war in 1939.  My opinion is that, if they couldnt have got the resources from the US they would have gotten them from somewhere else.

The only real threat to the Britain being knocked out (or maybe more appropriately, starved out) of WWII was the U-Boat.

As Churchill said '... the only thing that ever really frightened me during the war was the U-boat peril'

As for the supplies, yes we brought a lot from America, as the Americans were sympathetic to the British cause.... and always willing to make money - it was easy, if that wasn't available im sure we could have got them from elsewhere.

And, Britain had been an ally of Russia long before the second world war.

I think there is a general  underestimation of the contribution of the commonwealth of not only troops but supplies as well.

 Tronsky

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Suave
The USSR possibly saved the west. Hitler realized that the USSR was going to attack, and did the only smart thing by preempting with an offensive of his own.

It's untrue. There were no offensive plans in USSR in 1941.

[Boroda]

Chairboy, very good read, thanks!

Some corrections:

1) Zhukov had no chance to become a Party leader, only as a result of "military coup".

2) Sputnik was only a result of Soviet military missile programm, in fact - a personal "hobby" of Sergey Korolev. Missile programm of such scale without nuclear weapons could be absolutely useless. BTW, Soviet side had it's own research in nuclear science and rocket technology, so Germans couldn't have monopoly for a long time. Americans were able to catch up with USSR in 10 years...

3) "Socialist" England by 1960 is a little bit too optimistic. Stalin ordered to stop "revolution export" in late-40s.

4) Deploying troops "across the Bering straight" is useless. There is no ground communication between Chukotka and mainland.

5) By 1966 there was no traffic on Red Square. There were tram rails there maybe in 1960, but they were removed soon.

I think I'll make more comments after reading your article more carefully ;_

[Boroda]

Originally posted by lasersailor184


1.) NO involvement at all.

We sell nothing to anybody, no lend lease, no rifles, parts ammunition go to britain or Russia.  It was because of all the things we gave / sold to britain and russia, they were finally able to turn the tide of the war in 1942/43.

So if we had done nothing, the war would have been over by 43 at the latest, and europe would be speaking German (except for spain and italy).

2.) Only selling equipment / parts and doing Lend Lease Programs.

What we did over there took a major strain off of the russians in their fighting.  So had we not done this and only sold / given them stuff, the war would have gone on many more years, but Russia would have finally won.  It would have been at the cost of many millions more lives then had died in what we had.

3.) Selling equipment and joining the war.

Well, you obviously know how this turned out.

Look closer at American exports to USSR during WWII. No rifles crappy tanks and planes that Americans couldn't fly. As for most important things, like trucks, oil refineries and telephone wire - i think USSR could by it for cash even without lend-lease. BTW lend lease prices for USSR were three times higher then for UK.

USSR could win without any foreign "aid", it only could take one more year and definetly more lives

[Glas]

I do think the UK would have held out as well if the US had not intervened at all.

In fact, I think Russia was strong enough to defeat the Nazis on her own.  They had made a helluva lot of headway before the Western Allies landed in Normandy.

At different points during the war, different countries had a defining impact on proceedings.  Had the UK capitulated in 1940, there would have been nowhere for the Western Allies to launch their bombers against Germany.  Also, Hitler would have secured the vast resources available in the UK, and would have had no need to garrison over a million soldiers on its Western front - men that could have made a difference in the battle with the USSR.

Next (timeline-wise) would probably come the US, with the great support given to the UK and USSR through lend-lease, and then their actual physical involvement in the war itself.  Although obviously in the latter case their hand was forced by the Japanese.

Finally the USSR, who made by far the biggest human sacrifice of them all.  Once the Soviet juggernaut started oiling her wheels, there was only going to be one outcome.

And in amongst it all, were the brave people from Poland, France, the Czech Republic, Hungary, etc who done everything they could to fight against the Nazis, whether it was by fleeing to the UK and joining the fight here or taking part in underground resistance movements.

No single nation effected the outcome of WWII, there were many heroes imo.