Rolling inside a better turning plane...w/a 38?

[batdog]

Okay... I've done something like this w/a f6f before vrs a Nik1, I think. I was basicly in heavy flaps and rolled (maybe corkscrewed?) to get inside him for a kill.

 I'm wonder if this is possiable say w/a 38 vrs a spit. As is now I can turn w/a Spit 2 times max if he knows his poop. I'm picturing going heavy flaps and then rolling inside the spits turn??

 Any comments... do any of you 38 experten out there do this?

 xBAT

[Lephturn]

I think I need a bit more detail no the setup here.  What speed are you flying at, are you closing on the bandit (more E than him?) and is he breaking flat or doing something else?

The P-38 has good roll at speed, and great initial turn rate along with great accelleration (best in the American planeset) and pretty good low speed control.  If he is in a flat turn (spit) and you are following Co-E... well roll won't get you anywhere by itself.  Maybe you mean a low yoyo?

Set it up a bit more for me and I'll see what I can do.  

[Wilbus]

Think what you mean is rolling scissors, you basicly make big rolls with elevator input, roll speed not very important there. You bascicly use the other guys will to turn better then you do to make him overshoot thus openeing up for a quick snapshot at him.

This can be done in all planes vs all planes, 109 good at it, P38 very good at it. The better the turner the easier it is to do, P38 can do it vs spit though unless the spit pilot knows what he is doing.

[Apar]

If U mean rolling into a tighter flat turn than your opponent, it depends very much on the speed (yours and the opponents).
I don't know the best flat turning speed of the P38 with and without flaps. But I've came across some P38's that make pretty tight turns (useing flaps) at say 220+ mph and can prolly turn tighter than a spit IX for one or 2 rounds. On the other hand I think the P38 shines more in vertical fights (wingovers, hammerheads, high yoyo's), especially with it's excellent acceleration and very nice rudder control.

This is what the 'Models page says about the useage of flaps in turn:

 

The P-38L has a fowler flap that is designed to also aid maneuvering at the 8 degree setting.  This setting will provide an enhancement to the plane's turning capabilities at a low cost in additional drag.  If you get caught in a turning fight, use of the maneuver setting is highly recommended.  The maneuver flap setting can be used up to speeds of 250 MPH  

In accordance with the same data U can deploy up to 30 deg flaps upto 250 mph, but that will be at the cost of more additional drag.

[ 01-10-2002: Message edited by: Apar ]

[AmRaaM]

slow moving p38 with ded 12 firing sniper guns vs a spitV,seasissy or high banking 9 all of them with 150-225 conv. guns and your ded meat for 3 good reasons,

70ais maneuverability of spits.
converged guns firing outside gun / inside cross pattern.
massive drag of 38 flaps under 200ais.

spit will out E you, out roll you, outgun you.  If you kill the spit its cuz you simply outflew him.

[ 01-10-2002: Message edited by: AmRaaM ]

[Seeker]

I think what you're describing is what Robert Johnson called a "lag roll".

Take a look here:
 http://www.lemsko.de/3d/ACM/lagroll.ram

It's a small ral player film showing the manouvre.

[AmRaaM]

Lag roll is not done the way he is describing. Lag roll is altering your flight path in order to maintain E while reducing your closure rate, usually done when overtaking a opponent who is substantially slower than your are. And done without using alot if any flaps. Better off doing a high yo yo in 38 since pretty easy to lose sight of your target if he happens to turn away or into you as you lag roll depending on your position and his defensive break.

[ 01-10-2002: Message edited by: AmRaaM ]

[Tac]

I got no clue what you're asking xbat.  

I think that what you described is what you do in the P-47 when a con follows you on a dive..only this time at a much slower speed.

If you corkscrewed "inside" him in and f6 with full flaps then that n1k was on full power and initally faster than you I think. And if he tried to turn to get inside you, you mustve had quite a number of chances to snapshot his bellybutton off.. specially if the n1k kept turning at full power.

"I'm picturing going heavy flaps and then rolling inside the spits turn??"

If you in that position, you're screwed. The spit will out-turn you below 350-300mph (but u know that, the 2 turns and that's it rule).

The only way I can deal with a spit at slow speeds is if its on the deck. Down there the sspit suffers from the slow accel and torque. I usually try to get myself to full flaps down and doing a series of lazy hi-low yoyo's or sciscoring and praying the spit is too realiant on its turn rate to keep pulling his stick as hard as he can during those turns AND that he's a bad shot.Eventually the spit will either auger on a turn, or level for a while because he's about to stall (where you can shoot or RUN from that engagement).. OR he will pass by your nose a few times giving you some snapshots.

Best works when near trees.. you can pull the 38's nose up HARD if you about to hit them and not spin (unless the $#@$#@$ flaps decide to autoretract *just* then).. and if the spit does that it WILL spin and auger.

[Kratzer]

Are you talking about a vector roll?  It is supposed to allow a plane with a good roll rate (Fw190, P47, F6F) to turn inside a TnB plane.

I vaguely understand the concept of a vector roll (you roll away from the direction the target breaks, and tuck under... i think - you definitely roll away).

Anyone know how to do a vector roll for real?

[batdog]

Hehe... well gents I think my idea is bogus   I think what I did in the f6f was basicly rolling scissors in a nose down attitude that made that nik1 blow past me and get on his 6 for a shot.

 Anyway thanks all for the input...any more ideas are welcome of course as I'm reading alot of good stuff so far anyway  

 xBAT

[Lephturn]

Kratzer, if you are rolling away from the bandit, I think that makes it a lag roll.  

This is what I would use in the case that I had more E than the bandit to keep my speed but avoid an overshoot and maintain my position on the bandit.  By rolling the opposite way from the direction of the bandit's turn, I can displace my flightpath so my turn is outside of his so I can use my greater speed (and hence turn rate) against his smaller turn radius but lower turn rate.  Once I get close enough for a shot and I'm still in lag pursuit in the turn, I can use a hard pull to get lead for a shot, burning my E advantage for the kill.  Don't miss, and if you do it's time to run.

If you combine the lag displacement roll with a pull into lead pursuit at the end for a shot, it looks exactly like what you describe Kratzer.  The beauty of it is, the guy you are attacking will have a VERY difficult time tacking you and figuring out what the heck is going on.

[illo]

Oh you just made him overshoot by rolling under his cowling. And pulling up to his 6 when he has passed you.

That works great in 190As.  Against la7s especially:)