Author Topic: The U.S. versus the rest of the world  (Read 1068 times)

Offline Boroda

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Re: Re: Re: The U.S. versus the rest of the world
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2005, 10:32:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Muckmaw1
Alright, ST, you boated the big one.

You've caught your limit. Time to sail for home.


Finally I have some place to flame... Was provoking for several days now, but noone payed attention :(

Offline beet1e

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Re: Re: The U.S. versus the rest of the world
« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2005, 11:12:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
It will be an obvious suicide to attack Russia with conventional force. Current American forces are unable to cotroll occupied Iraq, and with Russian spaces and population US soldiers will be spread freezing and starving after reaching Russian-Belorussian border in forests around Smolensk. In the East they will disappear in taiga around the railway line between Vladivostok and Ussuriysk.
Yes - the last time Russia was attacked like this, the attempt was thwarted by only two men: Monsieur Janvier, and Monsieur Fevrier. These gentlemen should not be underestimated! :aok

Offline Boroda

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Re: Re: Re: The U.S. versus the rest of the world
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2005, 11:31:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
Yes - the last time Russia was attacked like this, the attempt was thwarted by only two men: Monsieur Janvier, and Monsieur Fevrier. These gentlemen should not be underestimated! :aok


It's another fact that contradicts things that "everyone knows", but winter of 1941 was nothing special, no really strong frost, it didn't go below -25C.

Both Napoleon and Hitler started their invasions in summer, but it didn't help them.

Offline Raider179

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Re: The U.S. versus the rest of the world
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2005, 11:55:42 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SunTracker
Ok, heres the hypothetical situation.  The U.S., after being mistreated by Europe and Asia, decides to destroy its enemies (the entire world).  Before laughing too hard, lets look at the facts

(1)  The U.S. has 3 methods of nuclear weapons delivery:  Subs, land based missles, and air dropped bombs

(2)The U.S. has the best tanks and aircraft.  The best Europe and Asia could hope to do would be to match the technology the U.S. has.

(3) The U.S. is isolated from the rest of the world.  To the North and South are friendly, non-military countries.  East and West are 2000 miles of ocean.

(4) Nuclear missle shield.

The only country that could launch nuclear missles against the United States would be Russia.  The efficency of these weapons would be greatly reduced due to the missle shield and the fact that Russia is in bad economic shape.

Realistically, if 'collateral damage' wasnt an issue, the U.S. could roll through Europe with ease.  Asia might be a bit more difficult due to terrain issues.  But with the largest airforce in the world, troops, tanks, and nuclear weapons could be anywhere needed within a matter of hours.

As for the troops, if the U.S. annexed Mexico, it would have more than enough soldiers.


1) you forgot nuclear tipped cruise missiles

2) you forgot nuclear artillery shells

2) fallout from such a conflict would probably kill us all anyway

3) The rest of the world might decide to team up against us.

4) missile shield doesnt help against conventional nukes

5) matter of hours you mean days right?

Offline Heretik

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The U.S. versus the rest of the world
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2005, 12:13:21 PM »


Bring em on!

Offline Wolfala

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The U.S. versus the rest of the world
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2005, 12:19:12 PM »
OK, time to put the Wolf down. This is a 500 page study that I worked on with the chair of the project on Boost Phase BMD - which is a planned tier of the NMD system. If you thought the Midcourse system was a pain in the ass, try this out for size.



http://www.aps.org/public_affairs/popa/reports/nmd03.cfm

For the full PDF:  

Here

or for the FTP challenged:  http://ftp://ftp.aps.org/nmd/


the best cure for "wife ack" is to deploy chaff:    $...$$....$....$$$.....$ .....$$$.....$ ....$$

Offline indy007

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Re: Re: The U.S. versus the rest of the world
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2005, 12:19:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
Missile shield, when completely deployed, is capable of intercepting 55 enemy warheads in theory. Practically I'll say something like 10-15 warheads. One modern MIRV.

The fact that Russia is in "bad economic shape" doesn't stop missiles from flying.

 

Planning a nuclear war in pure insanity. In conventional warfare US doesn't stand a single chance against modern army prepared for defence. In case US attacks Russia - our country will mobilize in a matter of days. It will be an obvious suicide to attack Russia with conventional force. Current American forces are unable to cotroll occupied Iraq, and with Russian spaces and population US soldiers will be spread freezing and starving after reaching Russian-Belorussian border in forests around Smolensk. In the East they will disappear in taiga around the railway line between Vladivostok and Ussuriysk.


You seem to have a generally poor understanding of Strategy and Grand Strategy.

1) Conventional forces historically have had major problems fighting insurgencies. Look at the Turk-Arab conflict for example. The difference is that now technology and tactics are changing so that smaller numbers of troops have a larger sphere of influence. It looks to be the only way to effectively battle an insurgency.

2) If Hitler, and the general that led the attack on Moscow weren't morons, WW2 would've gone differently. They were overly confident because of their success, abandoned the indirect approach strategy, and wasted too much manpower trying to capture a "symbol" instead of resources.

3) Modern defense works to an extent (excluding the fact a company of M1A1s wiped out a dug-in battalion of T-72s from the Medina Division in the first gulf war after literally stumbling into them), but it still overmatched by highly mobile forces using an indirect approach. Static defenses are immensely effective at blunting direct attacks... but that's it. I believe Guderian proved that point very well.

4) The "historic success" of Russian swarm tactics are overblown. The Germans were still winning battles outnumbered 8 to 1, with inferior tanks. Had Hitler not enforced a static line defense to hold captured terrority, a flexible-line strategy would've checked Russian offenses and kept gains to a minimum.

There's only a small handful of Russian generals that I know of who effectively used the indirect approach. The soviet equipped & trained armies of modern day don't grasp the principles of it. If they did, Israel would've been conquered & the Israeli-Iran war wouldn't have been a war of attrition.


okay, flame away.

Offline Wolfala

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The U.S. versus the rest of the world
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2005, 12:22:43 PM »
And for an analysis on the midcourse system (Thats Suntracker's premise)

"Countermeasures" Writtin in April 2000. 174 pages, but easier on the eyes.


http://www.ucsusa.org/publications/report.cfm?publicationID=132


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Offline bunch

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The U.S. versus the rest of the world
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2005, 12:28:41 PM »
I've been wondering for a while if all of the people in the world were rounded up & had to brrawl with all of the elephants in the world, who would win?

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2005, 01:09:02 PM »
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Originally posted by bunch
I've been wondering for a while if all of the people in the world were rounded up & had to brrawl with all of the elephants in the world, who would win?


Whales.

Offline Wolfala

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The U.S. versus the rest of the world
« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2005, 01:23:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
Whales.



HAHAHAHAHAHA.  My money's with Boroda


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Offline Boroda

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Re: Re: Re: The U.S. versus the rest of the world
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2005, 01:31:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by indy007
You seem to have a generally poor understanding of Strategy and Grand Strategy.


Agreed, I have no military education ;)

Quote
Originally posted by indy007
1) Conventional forces historically have had major problems fighting insurgencies. Look at the Turk-Arab conflict for example. The difference is that now technology and tactics are changing so that smaller numbers of troops have a larger sphere of influence. It looks to be the only way to effectively battle an insurgency.


The only tactics to effectively fight insurgency is medieval - take hostages, slaughter entire settlements to terrorise others.


Quote
Originally posted by indy007
2) If Hitler, and the general that led the attack on Moscow weren't morons, WW2 would've gone differently. They were overly confident because of their success, abandoned the indirect approach strategy, and wasted too much manpower trying to capture a "symbol" instead of resources.


Hm. Let me disagree. Biggest part of Soviet industry was under Germans by Oct. 1941. Moscow is a HUGE industrial and transportation center, it's importance can't be overestimated.


Quote
Originally posted by indy007
3) Modern defense works to an extent (excluding the fact a company of M1A1s wiped out a dug-in battalion of T-72s from the Medina Division in the first gulf war after literally stumbling into them), but it still overmatched by highly mobile forces using an indirect approach. Static defenses are immensely effective at blunting direct attacks... but that's it. I believe Guderian proved that point very well.


Soviet plans were based on flank attacks and usage of motorised and tank units to cut off enemy lines and counterattack. But this tactics failed :( Static defence is usefull only in unimportant directions. It's a basic thing, please correct me if I am wrong.

Static defence was impossible for USSR, it's obvious, the density of defense was too thin, we simply didn't have enough troops for reliable defense.

Quote
Originally posted by indy007
4) The "historic success" of Russian swarm tactics are overblown. The Germans were still winning battles outnumbered 8 to 1, with inferior tanks. Had Hitler not enforced a static line defense to hold captured terrority, a flexible-line strategy would've checked Russian offenses and kept gains to a minimum.


"Russian swarm tactics"? What's that?

USSR lost maybe 30% more troops then Germany, mostly because of 1941 catastrophe.  

"Germans winning battles outnumbered 8 to 1" is another myth.

Quote
Originally posted by indy007
There's only a small handful of Russian generals that I know of who effectively used the indirect approach. The soviet equipped & trained armies of modern day don't grasp the principles of it. If they did, Israel would've been conquered & the Israeli-Iran war wouldn't have been a war of attrition.


Hmm. This opinion has a right to exist :D

The main problem with Arabs is that they are not warriors. Worse then Romanian army. No training can turn cowards into soldiers.

Just imagine one Soviet motoinfantry division in Kuwait-City in 1991. They could turn a city into a small-scale Stalingrad instead of running away.

Quote
Originally posted by indy007
okay, flame away.


:( You disappoint me :(


What I meant in my forst post in this thread is that US is unable to wage a full-scale war relying on "smart weapons" and other fancy stuff. You see, they ran out of cruise missiles in Yugoslavia and then in Iraq. In Russia they'll probably get as low as bayonet attacks (exaggerating). Fighting a country with full scale echeloned air-defence, rocket artillery and thousands of tanks, sattelite recon, ECM corps, submarine fleet and every male knowing how to assemble his Kalashnikov is quite different from beating third-world countries exausted by decades of sanctions.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2005, 01:43:34 PM by Boroda »

Offline Yeager

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The U.S. versus the rest of the world
« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2005, 01:52:56 PM »
I was going to post equivalent dribble comparable to everyone else who passes through here and leaves waste but I have honestly forgotten what this thread is about!

I digress......
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline Boroda

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The U.S. versus the rest of the world
« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2005, 01:58:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
I was going to post equivalent dribble comparable to everyone else who passes through here and leaves waste but I have honestly forgotten what this thread is about!

I digress......


Yeager, we need you here! ;)

Offline SunTracker

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The U.S. versus the rest of the world
« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2005, 02:02:44 PM »
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Alright, ST, you boated the big one.




I think were gonna need a bigger boat...