Author Topic: Head on shots ! (Read 1327 times)

Robert · « **on:** February 06, 2000, 10:50:00 AM »

how do you keep some one from taking head-on shots? I see ppl that say they never take them but there is allot of it going on.
the ones I hate the most is when pounce a enm plane in your 51 about 2.5d of their 6. the enm plane immediately dive for the deck then pulls vertical and fly strait at you with all guns blazing. being that you are on the deck you can't dive away.

thanks for any help !!

Westy · « **Reply #1 on:** February 06, 2000, 12:40:00 PM »

Robert, please allow me to quote Vermillion who said it so well on the AW3 NewBigWeek newsgroup last week in answer to just this exact question brought up by someone else. Verm I hope you don't mind. I had to add the first part because it puts it in perspective for AWiers. I've tried the "ducking under" maneuver and I must be doing it wrong as I die each time.

"The part that makes me laugh is when an AW pilot goes to another game where collisions are modeled, and HO's and frontal aspect shots aren't negated, and then complains about face shooters. Its a thing unique to the AW culture. And it has its purpose and reason here. But other newer games aren't hampered by a 1987 code base. You just can't flight straight at someone (like many in AW have learned to do with our style of ACM) and not expect them to take a shot now and then.
Personally I avoid the HO , many other don't.

And what's the best way to avoid it? A couple of ways.

1.) Go for simple lateral (sideways) offset, if you are real good at this you can make the other guy miss, and use your own rudder to get off your own HO. Not my personal preference but some people are real good at
it.
2.) A Barrel Roll just as you start to enter guns range is another method. The bad thing is that its mostly a defensive manuever. It makes the other guy miss, but you get really nothing out of it on the offfensive side.
3.)My personal favorite, I call "ducking under". As you merge point your plane right at the bad guy (just like in AW). He will think your going HO, and most likely start thinking about how he can get his own shot off. Then time a hard dive just before he can start too shoot (but don't red out), by
the time he see's you, reacts, and pushes his own nose down, he will have to redout to get his guns on you. Plus negative elevator is usually weak. Once you go under him, immediately pull up into a vertical low G climb to get above him. Now you have E on him, and your one move ahead. The fight is
yours unless you blow it.

FYI if he trys to "duck under" you as well, go into a hi yo yo or a chandelle, and you will come out with the same results. Its all an aerial chessmatch, but going for a HO is a low percentage move. Vermillion "

[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 02-06-2000).]

Dingy · « **Reply #2 on:** February 06, 2000, 04:09:00 PM »

In regards to avoiding the HO with a barrel roll, I have to disagree with the comment that "...you really get nothing out of it." To be honest, any lateral separation you can get to avoid the HO is a benefit in my book especially since so many pilots seem to thrive on the HOs.

I begin an easy barrell roll about 1.2K out and what I find more often than not is that the enemy still tries to go for the head on regardless of whether they give up E or not. The most common mistake is following the Barrell Roll around and split-s'ing on my plane as I pass Underneath. Soon as I see this, the fite is over...I pull up into a low G zoom and soon find the enemy far below me. At that point, its just a matter of time before they die.

In summary, any move that gains you lateral separating to avoid the HO is a benifit in my opinion.

-Ding

Robert · « **Reply #3 on:** February 06, 2000, 04:36:00 PM »

i don't think i'm complaining ....i'm more or less trying to figure out how to stop the ppl from flying strait at me and taking the shot. i have several films when i get killed by headons no matter what i try......be it barrel roll dive or hi yo yo. i think im looking of a answer to a question that no one has. to tell you the trueth about it if i would get my arse out of the p51 and into something with the cannons on it ,it might make a differece !

Pongo · « **Reply #4 on:** February 06, 2000, 04:55:00 PM »

The niki seems good to counter HO.
First it has a good HO threat itself which lessens the number of HOs you will encounter for some reason..
Second it seems to have great authority to manuever right at the right time followed by excellent instant vertical which is best tool against the king of HO (F4U1c)
And it has snap shot kill which is nice after successfull evade...
Wingmen really help too.. you can be alot more wastful losing E to evade when there is another threat there to keep him honest.
But that applies to any ACM

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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

Spatula · « **Reply #5 on:** February 06, 2000, 11:19:00 PM »

I'm not the best pilot here by a long shot, but here's my solution. Comments, criticisms welcome.

I find the easiest way to avoid them is a simple break turn. Just get con heading at ya from your 10 o'clock or 2 o'clock, when they are d 1.3 or so commence easy break turn into them (i say easy cause a break turn is normally a hardish turn). If they try to follow you they scrub off alot of E and provided you didnt turn too hard yourself and all other things being eqaul you should be in a better position than you were in. If they dont thats a different kettle of fish.
This has worked for me nearly all the time. The following encounters get interesting tho. I think the break turn may scrub off too much speed for any B&Z planes - so use carefully. It works in spit fairly well.

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Overlord Spatula,
1st Airborne Kitchen Utensil Assault Group

"... 10 Me-109s out of the sun..." Aces High, Iron Maiden.

Lephturn · « **Reply #6 on:** February 07, 2000, 08:19:00 AM »

If you are dying repeatedly to a HO'er there are likely two things you are doing wrong.

First, you are not likely doing your evasive early enough. With netlag and such, you need to start your evasive around D1.2. By D300 or so you should have completed your manuever and be pulling into your next move. Because of netlag, the other guy will see you start a move at 800 or so, and he'll pass you as you finish it.

Second, you are possibly pointing your nose at the bad guy. Never point directly at the guy after about D5 or so. Go slightly off to one side and under his nose. As he dives for the HO, you do your evasive barrell roll or whatever and then go into a reversal, normally a verticle one. Half the time the dweebs will transition to a split S and you own 'em. The other half they'll try the HO and then pull into a gentle climb. Now you have a real fight on your hands, but generally you have gained angles even if he still has more E than you do.

I'll have to record a flight of me avoiding a bunch of HO's. You have to avoid them every flight, but once you know how, you smile when they go for it because you know they are gonna die because of it.

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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs

Westy · « **Reply #7 on:** February 07, 2000, 08:31:00 AM »

Robert, I didn't think you were complaining the least. I just wanted to put up all of Verm's posts on the matter for more than just us who were talking about it. More folks lurk and never speak here than do.

-Westy

Dingy · « **Reply #8 on:** February 07, 2000, 09:07:00 AM »

Guys, I have a film I did while working with another pilot named SkyHound who had this very same problem. I told him we would approach head on and that he was to try for the HO. He went for the head-on, lost E and the fite was soon over for him

If anyone is interested, leave me email at mfritzlen@mgfairfax.rr.com. I'd be glad to share what training films I got.

-Ding

Robert · « **Reply #9 on:** February 07, 2000, 11:14:00 AM »

Westy
everything is ok i just wanted to let everyone know that i wasn't complaining or anything. but i tell you if i have any more
days like yesturday where i fly 10 sorties
and never get a any where near a kill.....im going to have to go to training some where.
I use to think i was something more than a
target in any of these simms no matter what plane i flew but now i know that i am just that right now a TARGET with a big RED BULLS
EYE TATOO ON MY oscar !!! hehehe !!!

Robert · « **Reply #10 on:** February 07, 2000, 11:16:00 AM »

ummm one more thing i came here to ACES HI
looking for a game with a higher level of difficulty and some new ppl. i've found them both !!!

Pongo · « **Reply #11 on:** February 07, 2000, 11:23:00 AM »

Robert dont fly alone..get Roger Wilco and find some one to fly with.
Survivability goes up 500%

humble · « **Reply #12 on:** February 07, 2000, 08:01:00 PM »

Robert...in my book this really isn't a HO.
it's a tactics question...based on your E state and preferences you havea lot of options...what you cant do here is fly straight. here are a few of the choices:

1) mirror bogie..pull up (3G) as he split-s's, this gives you maximum vertical seperation and retains E

2) dive a little as he begins split-s at 1800 go vertical (hi-g) to straight vertical, your hoping to get him to follow you in reflex..you should rope him easy if he does.

3) initiate an "out of plane" manuever..a chandelle or hi yoyo lead turn that pulls you up and out of his normal views, many pilots fight only in the pure vertical or horizontal and this type of move upsets there train of thought...it also creates horizontal seperation. Ideally you end up hi, behind and to one side of bogie.

4) as he goes under dive and angle away (30 degree or so) if he turns toward you go to 1 or 2 above. If not at 1200 or so commence a climbing lag turn (gentle with nose behind con. The goal is to cross over his path behind and above and continue to his hi rear on other side and commence attack from there.

these are just a couple of the options you've got there.

As for true HO's on merge..lots of posts for that.

My favorites are as follows.

1) vertical seperation
2) horizontal seperation
3) lead turn
4) rudder input
5) cross control (oppisite aerlion and rudder to "crab" plane)

If you combine 2-3 of these (or more) it is tough to get HO'd (but not impossible

[This message has been edited by humble (edited 02-07-2000).]

Mr.ED · « **Reply #13 on:** February 08, 2000, 08:31:00 AM »

Hey humble yer giving away trade secrets of making your pony out last the cons!

One more thing to add, Timing!

Right around 1.2, A half roll with rudder skid to get you off centre line, then pull into and past the con keeping your AOT low until your are inside his turn radius.

HO is one aspect of AH that is now realistic.
Pilot in WWII would avoid HO on both sides. it is a big gamble, here you get a new plane, then you die.

Point of interest. The most nimble Spit and quad 20mm Nikis are the two most popular planes HO dweeb use. Your 51 can out climb both of these planes if your eneregy state in high.

fly with a someone is best solution.

Mr.ED
Pony Pilot
Knight

Pongo · « **Reply #14 on:** February 08, 2000, 10:26:00 AM »

Mr Ed
I would say that Hog C is the most common HO plane....

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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew