Author Topic: Delta in Deep  (Read 1618 times)

Offline Thrawn

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6972
Delta in Deep
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2005, 01:45:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Furball
you have friends in air canada...

and you want them to go tits up? :(



No, I want a time machine so I can send back the Westjet board of directors to take over Air Canada a couple of decades ago, so my friends jobs will be more secure and so the Canadian taxpayer isn't asked to pick up the bill.

I never said I want Air Canada to go tits up.  I said I don't want tax payer dollars to fund it.

Offline Furball

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15781
Delta in Deep
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2005, 01:49:43 PM »
ahh sorry.. i misunderstood your "whoohoo!" comment.

thought it was because you were happy Air Canada was failing.

Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn

Because Air Canada was bulky, and ineffient and has gone tits up.  The want the government to bail them out again, the government finally said "No" (whoohoo!).
I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know.
-Cicero

-- The Blue Knights --

Offline cpxxx

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2707
Delta in Deep
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2005, 08:01:06 PM »
Once upon time, most countries had an airline that was the 'flag carrier'. They were subsidisied. Even in America airlines were subsidised in some form or other or at the very least 'protected'.  Ticket prices were mandated in the US by the Civil Aeronautics Board. It was a matter of prestige for the countries concerned. The result was a cost protected worldwide cartel. High airfares and a bloated overpaid bone idle workforce. Only well off people could fly on Pan Am, Delta, United, TWA, Continental, Braniff, British Airways, Air France, Aer Lingus, Swissair, Sabena, CSA, Air Canada etc etc.  It was a great time to work for the airlines, high pay, travel, glamour. It had it all. Remember the movie? 'Catch me if you can?'. Halcyon days.

But one day a new man appeared on the scene. His name was Herb Kelleher and he was from Texas. He invented an airline called Southwest. They had low fares, minimum employees and low overheads. The big boys were horrified and tried to kill his little airline. But they failed and now most of them are either gone to the great hangar in the sky or desperately trying to compete with all the other low cost airlines that have sprung up.  All copying in one form or other the Southwest mode. The old style airlines must change or die. That includes CSA, Lada, Ryanair or Easyjet will gobble them up unless they go low fare.  

Ryanair is a good example of the new low fare model. In theory an Irish airline it is in fact a multinational airline with bases everywhere and a huge fleet of Boeing 738's with more being delivered every day.  It has the power and muscle to undercut any airline that trys to compete with it.  Soon there will be only one or two airlines left in Europe and one of them will be called Ryanair. A commercial for another low fare airline pointed out that it was cheaper to fly to Germany than the cab fair to the airport.

Delta won't survive unless it competes with the Southwest's and the Jetblue's. People no longer want to pay big money to fly. It's as simple as that.

Offline Dago

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5324
Delta in Deep
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2005, 09:59:57 PM »
I wouldnt go so far as to credit Southwest and Herb for deregulation, but I do admire that fact that at least Southwest treats it's employees like human beings.  What a novel concept in the airline business.

Be careful and consider the consequences of driving all the airline competition out of business.  What will control fairs then?

dago
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Offline -tronski-

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2825
Delta in Deep
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2005, 10:50:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dago
It is a global problem for the whole industry.  Many of the smaller countries with a single major airline are only surviving because as the countries flagship carrier, their government pours money into them, often more as a matter of pride and providing employment, rather than an attempt to bridge them to profitablity.  Even airlines in larger countries are suffering, many in a big way.

dago


Not entirely true, SIA, Emirates, Qantas all made money last year and all have a promising profitability outlook for this year. QF,and Emirates don't recieve govt. money (no idea about SIA) and are all considered flagship airlines.

 Tronsky
God created Arrakis to train the faithful

Offline Dago

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5324
Delta in Deep
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2005, 10:56:15 PM »
I said "Many of the smaller countries", I didnt say all.

I can only hope you guys understand I work in aviation, and have traveled to and and worked with many people at many small airlines in many countries, big and small.  I dont pretend to be an industry expert, but I do have a bit of an inside view.

dago
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Offline Thrawn

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6972
Delta in Deep
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2005, 01:19:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dago
Be careful and consider the consequences of driving all the airline competition out of business.  What will control fairs then?



The market, just like it should in capitalism.

Offline Raider179

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2036
Delta in Deep
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2005, 02:37:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e


... in view of the financial difficulties being experienced by American long haul operators, help is at hand in the form of the new Airbus 380, which is about 15% cheaper to operate per seat-mile, and might prove to be the spade with which they can dig themselves out of the hole that they're in.

I see that UPS and FedEx already have orders for the A380. No doubt other American carriers will follow suit shortly. :aok


These are orders for cargo carriers and will be used for international delivery by the companies. I would highly doubt you will see them used by American Passenger flights as the main company behind the 380 is France. Not to mention Germany and Spain. Yes UK played a part in development. Americans tend to have pretty good memories when it comes to returning favors.

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
Delta in Deep
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2005, 05:05:44 AM »
Raider179

Of course the part of my post that you quoted was tongue in cheek. ;) Yes, the only US carriers to have placed A380 orders so far are freight carriers. I mentioned earlier that American Airlines runs SIX flights per day from London to New York using B767. It's likely they could save money by consolidating these into three flights by operating A380s on that route. AA does not operate any B747 (an employee of theirs tells me this is due to fuel cost considerations), but does have A300-600 in its fleet. And both United Airlines and US Airways operate Airbus aircraft.
Quote
Originally posted by cpxxx
A commercial for another low fare airline pointed out that it was cheaper to fly to Germany than the cab fair to the airport.

Delta won't survive unless it competes with the Southwest's and the Jetblue's. People no longer want to pay big money to fly. It's as simple as that.
A very interesting post, CP - the whole thing, not just what I quoted here. I'm amazed by RyanAir. They offer flights to foreign destinations at ridiculous prices, eg. £1 for a flight to Salzburg. And yet in one recent year they made a £20m profit: How do they do it?! As to the cab ride to the airport being more expensive than the flight...

... In 2001, I went with a friend to Dublin on RyanAir. The seats were £1 each way. The biggest expense was the tax which put the round trip total for two people to £52. If we'd gone by boat, the petrol to and from Liverpool would have cost more than that! In the event, the airfare with tax came to less than what we spent on the Guinness in Temple Bar.

The whole experience of flying with RyanAir and easyJet leaves me in no doubt that what you say is correct. Their business model of filling all seats, cutting out frills, cutting out first and business - is what people want. Palatial airport terminals, expensive lounges, toilets with marble basins and gold taps belong in the past.

Just one thing though - I wish the airports that RyanAir flew to weren't so inconvenient! Venice Traviso? Frankfurt Hahn? - bah! :mad:

;)

Offline Chortle

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 419
Delta in Deep
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2005, 05:51:30 AM »
Dont forget Freddie Laker and Skytrain, his I think was the first and only airline to do budget transatlantic flights.

Offline Dago

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5324
Delta in Deep
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2005, 07:37:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
The market, just like it should in capitalism.


So, your saying there really is no need for anti-monopoly laws?
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Offline Thrawn

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6972
Delta in Deep
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2005, 12:42:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dago
So, your saying there really is no need for anti-monopoly laws?



Of course, only a commie would say otherwise.  I kind of like the idea of freedom.

Offline Dago

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5324
Delta in Deep
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2005, 01:11:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
Of course, only a commie would say otherwise.  I kind of like the idea of freedom.


You are either kidding, or very short sighted.

dago
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Offline weaselsan

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1147
Delta in Deep
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2005, 01:23:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Furball
you have friends in air canada...

and you want them to go tits up? :(


No he wants Air Canada to stop sucking up his hard earned money and become a business that becomes profitable on it's own merits rather than depending on the taxpayers to keep it afloat.

Offline Nashwan

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1864
Delta in Deep
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2005, 01:46:05 PM »
Quote
A very interesting post, CP - the whole thing, not just what I quoted here. I'm amazed by RyanAir. They offer flights to foreign destinations at ridiculous prices, eg. £1 for a flight to Salzburg. And yet in one recent year they made a £20m profit: How do they do it?!


It's partly down to subsidies.

Ryanair flies to a lot of small regional airports, and gets support from regional governments for doing so.

As an example, they've recently been ordered to repay some of the £10 million they've recieved since 2001 for flying to Charleroi airport in Belgium.