Author Topic: How do you guys cause a over shoot?  (Read 1449 times)

eye

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How do you guys cause a over shoot?
« on: June 02, 2000, 02:00:00 AM »
Ive noticed how many of you try to cause a overshoot here? Even when a simple turn would do? What are your secrets? I fly the spit9 p38 and 190. La5's 109's and niki's Do well against me by forceing over shoots. Any tips? I do them myself but not as well as some of you here. Any help greatly apreciated.

Offline Saintaw

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How do you guys cause a over shoot?
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2000, 02:23:00 AM »
Scisors, rolling Scissors ...
I know the "How" but I don't know the "when"... someone please add the "when"  
Saw
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Offline RAM

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How do you guys cause a over shoot?
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2000, 02:34:00 AM »
Last resort when I have one Spit climbing towards me...

I pull and start a steep climb and when the guy is going to start shooting, pull the hardest I can. I get a spin here ,but hard rudder and push stick recovers it in 3-5 seconds, while the Spit sees his aiming wasted at all.

First time I used this last resort move was against you,EYE,in a spit and Pongo in a 190   you had to leave after that and pongo came after me...

That was one of the finest fights I've ever had in 190 versus 190  ...I have it in film...but as the terrain has changed I have no idea about if it can be still seen or not  

Offline leonid

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How do you guys cause a over shoot?
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2000, 03:14:00 AM »
snap roll, usually in combination with a vector change.  Very effective.

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[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 06-02-2000).]
ingame: Raz

Offline Dinger

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How do you guys cause a over shoot?
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2000, 04:05:00 AM »
My La-5 maneuver --
fake a split-ess, get him to follow you down a bit (otherwise it don't work), accelerating, then you roll upright and pull up hard.  He tries to follow you back up; at this point you level out and let the powerful acceleration of the La5 take over.  He overshoots, burning far more energy than you, and, in the best of all possible worlds, you're co-E on his six.  Of course, you're usually just set up for a hosing snapshot with the fuse-mounted ShVAKs.
These days, they pull up at the first sign of a split-ess, watch the move a couple times, then dive in burning lots of E and sitting on the reverse.  *POP*

Offline Dingy

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How do you guys cause a over shoot?
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2000, 10:22:00 AM »
Here are some of the tricks I've noticed for forcing overshoot and how I counter them:

1) Quick E Bleed Skid - Various planes have large rudders (La5, P-51 and F4U) which allow them to bleed ALOT of speed in a very short time.  I can take a 51 from 300+ down to 150 in less than 10 seconds (side note: is this realistic??).  Anyway the trick is to use a combination of your roll rate (to avoid the shot...kinda like a scissors) and the E Bleed to avoid the shot on an incoming bogie so that he blows past and then hope for a snapshot.  The problem with this move is that most planes accellerate very slowly (except the La5).  If you dont get the snapshot, yer dead meat.

The safest way to counter it is to get yourself a little verticle separation from the target.  Chop throttle a little, pull up and climb in a slightly banked turn to put yourself about 30 degrees off the tail.  Reacquire the bandit and roll back into him.  This E bleed is usually only good 1 or 2 times before the enemy's E is depleted.

I HARDLY EVER use this move since yer hoping the guy chasing you doesnt use good E management.  This move puts the skidder at a severe disadvantage.

2) Rolling scissors.  This is a move that works GREAT.  Basically its started with a high G low yoyo to one side starting when the bogie is about 1.6 off your tail.  Roll about 190-200 degrees and begin a high G bank back into your attacker.  The key is to pull hard enough to enter a partial blackout but not so hard that you lose sight of the bogie.  Keep the bogie centered in the screen during the first part of the move.

What you do next depends on what the bogie does.  If he pulls up, stop your move, roll level and try to pick up more speed to either gain separation or to get ready to do this again.  If the attacker continues to force the shot, continue your roll around and reacquire the target in your up/forward-up views. Ease off the stick a bit and use lag pursuit to follow the bogie.  He is probably just now passing you.  At this point, you may be able to roll around and follow his plane in lag pursuit to build up E while hes fighting a blackout and pulling max-Gs.  If the speed differential is not too great at this point, you may have a snapshot.  If he gains separation, you have whittled the E margin down considerably.  Set up for his next attempt.

3) Verticle Overshoot - This move works well when you are in a superior climbing plane to your attacker.  Basically its similar to the previous move but requires you to have enough speed to go into a max-G climbing turn once the enemy is in guns range (1.6 or less).  

As the bogie dives on your 6, you pull up and into a high G yoyo again trying to keep sight of the bogie.  You may want to roll a bit as you come around so that you dont give the enemy a good snapshot.  As the attacker passes by, roll your lift vector into him and set up for a snapshot.  

The best guns defense is never to require it and when you do, to use the advantages of your plane against his.  If you are in a faster plane, use option 2 to whittle down the E differential to allow yourself to gain separation.  If you are in a better climbing plane, you can use either 2 or 3 to deny the shot and set up the snapshot.

-Ding

Offline Soda

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How do you guys cause a over shoot?
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2000, 10:52:00 AM »
Be really careful though as you need to get the guy pretty close before you try a move like this.  If you try it and he's still D200 out and a good pilot, he'll just pull up into high-Yo to bleed speed quick and gain alt.  Then he'll wait for you to end the silliness and drop on you for the even easier kill.  

The key is to get him close, really close and then throw out the brakes.  I find a hard barrel roll will get them to overshoot and still leave my nose pointed the right direction to maybe look at a snap shot as he passes.



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eye

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How do you guys cause a over shoot?
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2000, 11:17:00 AM »
Im attacking a la5 or a niki low from above in a higher e state. Not alot higher but enough that i can pull above for another pass. I make my pass im close to guns so i drop speed. Guy does a scisors, right then rolls to left. Then pulls up in a roll. If im in a 38 im dead. Aper pulled this move on me 4 times in 2 days 4 kills for him in his la5. In a spit i find their able to get behind me for a shot But not as much. I then ride it around in a tight turn or try a climb as steep as possible looking for a 109 stomp turn<Hammerhead> The only way to avoid is not to lose my e advantage? Pull up and wait for bogie to stop then try another pass? Am i being to agressive or not enough. Should i come into the fight slower? This all happening to me on the deck it seems. thx all. Btw i rember that fight ram

Offline Badger

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How do you guys cause a over shoot?
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2000, 12:16:00 PM »
1.  I open canopy and throw empty beer cans out, which causes him to duck, lose focus and either overshoot, or break off the attack.

2.  I fire my MG's with one very long burst, which causes the empty cartridge casings being ejected to fall to my rear and the attacker flies through them.  He then believes he's taking pings from someone on his six and breaks hard.  Learned this one from Adolf Galland's biography.

3.  ALT F4 out of game...works all of the time.

On a more serious note:  

Saw's works....
Dinger's works...
Leonid's works...
Ram's works...

I know, because at various times in my AH career, I have been on the receiving end of all of them, as the cleaned my clock when I attacked with that kind of advantage.




[This message has been edited by Badger (edited 06-02-2000).]

Offline RAM

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How do you guys cause a over shoot?
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2000, 12:23:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Badger:


2.  I fire my MG's with one very long burst, which causes the empty cartridge casings being ejected to fall to my rear and the attacker flies through them.  He then believes he's taking pings from someone on his six and breaks hard.  Learned this one from Adolf Galland's biography.
[This message has been edited by Badger (edited 06-02-2000).]

Ummm not exactly...I dont know if was galland himself, I think it was another pilot,and was on a Fw190.

The thing is that he had a bandit on his 6, and he had no escape at all. Then in a moment of desperation he fired all his weapons...the smoke trails from his wings made think the bandit that he had rearward shooting weapons!!!!!!

(Dont recall where did I read this...but it seems it truly happened)


JENG

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How do you guys cause a over shoot?
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2000, 10:35:00 AM »
I fly the G10 and these 2 moves work the best with me.

1) barrel roll... you don't lose to much E but it's nearly impossible for the enemy to hit you (except when he is in a C-hog   )
2) Rollin scissors. (watch the G-load you want to hang on to as much E as possible)

Both moves capitalise on the fact that you are trying to force the overshoot while making yourself a difficult target. When they do I can hit wep and follow them up (G10   ). Big thing to remember, these are suckermoves... if the guy doesn't go for it (goes up in a high yo yo or something like that)... you are buggered. So it's best to do them when the speed difference is quite big.

When I'm caught by surprise or when I want to bug out I'll use the hartmann move (hard push on stick, full left rudder, full left stick)convert in a split S (try to roll out in the blind side of the con).

Bee out

[This message has been edited by JENG (edited 06-03-2000).]

Offline Baddawg

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How do you guys cause a over shoot?
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2000, 11:02:00 AM »
It was Galland   as far as my memory serves me

Offline escafe

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How do you guys cause a over shoot?
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2000, 11:48:00 AM »
It was Galland. I just finished reading " The First and the Last " by him and he mentions using that a couple of times.

eye

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How do you guys cause a over shoot?
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2000, 03:17:00 AM »
 On the Rolling scicors you guys are cutting throttle too right? I seem to run out of e. Any of you drop gear or stop engine ? Have done both It works some times. I still am not as good as some on causeing a overshoot. Its a bit of a mystery move to me.

Offline Minotaur

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How do you guys cause a over shoot?
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2000, 08:57:00 AM »
Be careful with this one.  Keep in mind that often times many players fly with wingies.  The first attacker will set you up and the trailer will set you down.

Good Luck!  

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