Author Topic: another one for you Laz.......  (Read 928 times)

Offline beet1e

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another one for you Laz.......
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2005, 12:40:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by weaselsan
If I lived in London and caught one of the prettythangholes in my house, I'd sit his prettythang down and force him to eat Chutney...that would make him think twice before he did it again.
LOL! If you really mean business, you should use Lime Pickle. That way, he'd suffer twice - the second time some hours after the first!

Offline Leslie

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another one for you Laz.......
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2005, 12:51:48 PM »
Well, bad as that was, about five years ago a man shot a burglar three times using a 270 deer rifle, after the burglar had left the house and was trying to escape in a car.  The burglar was 200 yards down the road when he was shot!!!

I don't think that was right, but the jury acquitted him of murder, which is what it was.

There is never an excuse for what the man did, yet he was exonerated.  It's almost like no one has sense nowadays.  That was the wrong thing to do, and there's no excuse for it.  Yet the jury hailed him as a hero and he got away with it.  Oh well.

In that neighborhood anyway, they didn't have to worry about burglars any more.






Les

Offline Dowding

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another one for you Laz.......
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2005, 04:53:28 PM »
The point about English 'reasonable force' law is that you can take pre-emptive action. If it is unclear what the intruder is doing at the time, the householder has the right to assume the worst.

The lad Tony Martin gunned down was running away. His intentions were ruled to be unambiguous.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline lazs2

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another one for you Laz.......
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2005, 08:41:21 AM »
nashwan... here it is illegal to not report a violent crime.... it is illegal to set boobytraps that could cause injury... it is illegal to round up gypsies in your field and machine gun em (it is ok to say it tho).   It is illegal to give a false police report.. It is not by any means illegal to shoot a burglar in the back if you claim you were in fear of your life.

So what did martin get convicted of?

lazs

Offline Nashwan

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another one for you Laz.......
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2005, 10:30:00 AM »
Murder.

The point about the other things is that they show it was his intent to kill, before the event, and the events afterwards cast doubt on his claim of self defence.

What also casts doubt on his claim of self defence is that he fled the scene, hid the weapon, and lied in his statements to the police, claiming to have been, and fired from, places where he couldn't have fired from.

So you not only have his intent to kill before the event, you have attempts to conceal the facts after the event.

Doesn't really sound like self defence.

It didn't to the police, which is why they charged him with murder.

It didn't to the jury, which is why they convicted him of murder.

It didn't to the court of appeal, which is why they refused to release him, and instead reduced his conviction to manslaughter on the grounds he suffers from extreme paranoia.

English law requires only 2 things to show self defence:

1, an honest belief (which need not be reasonable, just honest) that force is required

2, a subject test that a reasonable person, who believed what the person honestly believed, would regard the force used as reasonable, with the proviso that:

"If there has been an attack so that self defence is reasonably necessary, it will be recognised that a person defending himself cannot weigh to a nicety the exact measure of his defensive action. If the jury thought that that in a moment of unexpected anguish a person attacked had only done what he honestly and instinctively thought necessary, that would be the most potent evidence that only reasonable defensive action had been taken."

That's it. You have to honestly believe force is required, and you have to use reasonable force, bearing in mind that in the heat of the moment reasonable has a whole different meaning to what seems reasonable after the event.

That's why there have only been 11 prosecutions of people for violence against intruders in residential or business premises in England and Wales in the last 15 years.

As to the difference in the Martin case being the use of a gun, no.

See for example the case of Kenneth Faulkner, who shot an intruder (John Rae) with a shotgun. Rae was sentenced to 7 year for several burglaries, Faulkner was not charged, and was praised by the judge at Rae's trial.

The problem in the UK is the perception of the law, not the law itself.

That's down to the media, who have sensed another "campaign" they can mount, and are misrepresenting cases to do it.

Take the case of Carl Lindsay as an example. He was recently sentenced to 8 years for manslaughter. This is how his story was presented:

Quote
Man Who Killed Armed Intruder Jailed Eight Years

By Will Batchelor, PA News

A man who stabbed to death an armed intruder at his home was jailed for eight years today.

Carl Lindsay, 25, answered a knock at his door in Salford, Greater Manchester, to find four men armed with a gun.

When the gang tried to rob him he grabbed a samurai sword and stabbed one of them, 37-year-old Stephen Swindells, four times.

Mr Swindells, of Salford, was later found collapsed in an alley and died in hospital.

Lindsay, of Walkden, was found guilty of manslaughter following a three-week trial at Manchester Crown Court.

He was sentenced to eight years’ imprisonment.

After the case, Detective Chief Inspector Sam Haworth said: “Four men, including the victim, had set out purposefully to rob Carl Lindsay and this intent ultimately led to Stephen Swindells’ death.

“I believe the sentences passed today reflect the severity of the circumstances.”

Three other men were charged with robbery and firearms offences in connection with the incident, which took place in February last year.
http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2687311


Quote
A 25-year-old man is beginning an eight year sentence after he was found guilty of the manslaughter of a 38-year-old man who had tried to rob him.

Carl Lindsay from Walkden, Greater Manchester, stabbed Stephen Swindells after he and three accomplices arrived at Lindsay's home armed with a gun.

Mr Swindells died later after he was found discovered collapsed in an alley.

His three accomplices were found guilty of robbery and firearms offences and sentenced to fourteen years.

Manchester Crown Court heard how Mr Swindells, from Rockley Gardens, Salford, went to Lindsay's flat at 2145 GMT on 27 February 2003 with the intention of robbing him.

Robbery and firearms offences

When Lindsay opened the door, to be confronted by him and three accomplices who were armed with a gun, he fetched a Samurai sword and stabbed Mr Swindells four times.

 Mr Swindells died later in Hope Hospital after he was found in an alleyway between Strawberry Road and Broad Street in Pendleton.

David Ryan, of Salford, Darren Ashton of no fixed abode and Michael Page, also of no fixed abode, were all convicted of robbery and firearms offences.

They were sentenced to 14 years.

Det Chief Insp Sam Haworth said: "Four men including the victims had set out purposefully to rob Carl Lindsay and this intent ultimately led to Stephen Swindell's death.

"I believe the sentences passed today reflect the severity of the circumstances."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/3561555.stm


It was gleefully picked up by pro gun sites across the US.

What's missing from the story is the fact that Lindsay was a drug dealer. The men entered posing as drug buyers, Lindsay chased them outside repeatedly stabbing one of them in the back with a sword he kept to protect his "business".

Offline J_A_B

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another one for you Laz.......
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2005, 12:10:28 PM »
Clearly the natural solution is for all theives to walk around backwards.  Then homeowners can't touch them.


J_A_B

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2005, 02:18:12 PM »
in the U.S. if a group of people are commiting a crime and during the commision of that crime someone is killed... all the perps are tried for murder.    

The story above is confusing..  are you saying that the guy being robed got an 8 year sentance for defending himself?

lazs

Offline J_A_B

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another one for you Laz.......
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2005, 03:13:24 PM »
in the U.S. if a group of people are commiting a crime and during the commision of that crime someone is killed... all the perps are tried for murder.

Involuntary manslaughter actually, at least in Ohio.

The key difference is whether the killing was planned beforehand or an unexpected consequence of committing some other crime.


J_A_B

Offline lazs2

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another one for you Laz.......
« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2005, 11:07:44 AM »
yep... manslauter... charged in the killing tho.

Soooo... it appears that all the stuff about not being able to defend yourself in england is overblown... that is fine but.. the fact remains that you are not allowed to use effective tools to do so.   A criket paddle may be fine for a 24 year old  6'6" male who works out 5 days a week but it is pretty inefective for a small woman or infirm elderly couple.     It is also not much of a deterent  "don't come in here or I will stike you with this paddle"  Or... "I have called the police... you may have only and hour or so to get out of here."

lazs

Offline Dowding

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another one for you Laz.......
« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2005, 01:20:57 PM »
Quote
Soooo... it appears that all the stuff about not being able to defend yourself in england is overblown...


If you listen carefully, you can hear the penny dropping...

I'm shocked and appalled that US pro-gun special interest groups would try to spin Britain as a lawless place where people are arrested for protecting themselves.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2005, 02:17:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
I'm shocked and appalled that US pro-gun special interest groups would try to spin Britain as a lawless place where people are arrested for protecting themselves.
That's the tip of the NRA iceberg, Dowding. Their classic spin technique is to seize on titbits from another country's history relating to firearms (selectively, of course) and present it in such a way as to be interpreted from the wrong (ie. American) perspective. This is done to add weight to the cause at home. Their US readership is scared into thinking that if they don't get off their backsides and join the NRA, a similar plight awaits them, ie. gun control laws.

What they don't tell you is that Britain is a democracy, and our laws (including firearms laws) have been passed by a democratically elected government. In the case of the 1920 Firearms Act, said government was re-elected in the election following the 1920 Act.

They also like their readership to be misled into believing that Britain is/was some sort of totalitarian state, and had no choice in the passing of the 1920 Act. They tell their American readership that the Act "sailed through parliament". This is to make their American readers think that we, the British electorate of that time, were powerless to prevent it, thus adding weight to the justification of the somewhat laughable theory that Americans must be allowed to arm themselves at home so that they'll be able to rise up against their government's military, should the need arise.

It's all bollocks, of course. As you yourself have observed, British gun ownership has always been "sod all", and the reason that the 1920 Act "sailed through parliament" was not because the electorate was powerless to prevent it, but because for the vast majority of law abiding people it was simply a non-issue.

Offline lazs2

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another one for you Laz.......
« Reply #41 on: January 30, 2005, 10:49:01 AM »
"Tip of the NRA iceberg"??  That does sound ominus.   I read the American Rifleman every month and don't see the things in it that beetle does.  

So beet... how many issues of the NRA magazines have you read lately?   Or... are you just making stuff up again?

The crime figures for england published in the NRA seem accurate according to "the home office" website.   In fact... taking into consideration the vast amount of facts stated by the magazine every month it seems weird that they get so little wrong.

No matter how you look at it tho... to ban the tools needed by most people to defend themselves... your country is throwing you to the wolves.   I also think that your laws probly are a lot more open to interpretation on the break in thing and that I would stand a better chance with our legal system after killing an intruder than I would with yours.

The perception by your people on this BB and in your country is that you need an extremely good reason to kill an intruder or you will face legal charges.   The exact opposssite is the perception here.

Since courts and juries are made up of people... I would rather take my chances in a more enlightened country like the U.S.   I would also like a better choice of weapons than which color of cricket paddle.

lazs

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #42 on: January 30, 2005, 12:07:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
"Tip of the NRA iceberg"??  That does sound ominus.   I read the American Rifleman every month and don't see the things in it that beetle does.  

So beet... how many issues of the NRA magazines have you read lately?   Or... are you just making stuff up again?
No, not making stuff up - I leave that to you, and for Nashwan to expose it all. ;)

I wasn't quoting from NRA magazines, but from material quoted on various NRA supporting websites.
Quote
No matter how you look at it tho... to ban the tools needed by most people to defend themselves... your country is throwing you to the wolves.
Hardly. We never had "gun rights" such as your 2nd amendment. All we had was a time when guns were legal because there had never been a reason for gun control laws - ie in the time before guns were invented. But then, as long ago as 1911, our govt. came to realise the folly of allowing guns into the hands of criminals. Six policemen were shot and killed in the five years 1908-1912, but in modern times only two have been shot and killed in the years from 1984 to the present day. That's despite most of them being unarmed, and compares with about 50 police shooting fatalities each year in the US, where the officers were armed to the teeth.

Offline lazs2

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another one for you Laz.......
« Reply #43 on: January 30, 2005, 12:30:25 PM »
Ok..so what lies has the NRA spread about your country?   And what lies has nashwan expossed... seems that a lot of his data is conflicting like the badly quoted kleck example.  

lazs