Author Topic: Herstal FN Five-SeveN for the US police force? (Read 1669 times)

lazs2 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 31, 2005, 08:46:42 AM »

most small caliber rounds are touted as being able to "tumble" on impact causeing horrendous damage... this is seldom true.

I think the main reasonj for such a gun is the lowering of standards to the point that most police are small or female and recoil sensitive. The round probly generates very little recoil.

lazs

Suave · « **Reply #16 on:** January 31, 2005, 08:49:57 AM »

Yep, sounds like a pistol that will do m16 style damage, bad guy still shooting at you with 4 holes in him.

For a pistol I would rather have something that throws a big heavy chunk of lead and dumps most if not all of it's energy into the target.

lazs2 · « **Reply #17 on:** January 31, 2005, 09:00:52 AM »

yep... I would agree. Was talking to the swat guy at the range and he told me of a fellow officer who took 3 44 mag rounds to the back while wearing their new armor. The guy survived but was paralized from one round that impacted over the spine. He is recovering the use of his legs tho.. Swat guy said it looked like all the rounds penetrated even tho they didn't... massive tissue damage. I am a big 44 mag round fan.

Another time... at the range.. the cops were practicing fireing from cover... they were using car doors on junk cars they had moved out there.... when they left I put six rounds of 44 mag 250 grain cast lead semi wadcuters into the car door... all penetrated clear through... They looked a little sheepish the next day when using the door for cover.

lazs

patrone · « **Reply #18 on:** January 31, 2005, 11:00:49 AM »

The disscusion on what caliber is the ultimate service round has been going on for about little over 100 years.

There are many new issues and a lot of undergoing work to solve the problem of criminals using bodyarmour.
One of the answers might be to switch to a "faster" bullet like the 5,7, but this has some issues as well. It has to stay in the body, without penetrate and also make as much damage possible to create "woundshock".

The ultimate handgun would be one that could switch between 2 diffrent calibers or types of bullets, but it would make a very cumbersome design.
IIRC Russian have a revolver with this feature for anti-terrorist use and for to stop cars.

And, you dont need a 44 mag. to shoot through a cardoor, 9mm works just as well, heck, even a 22 long will pass through......

Monk · « **Reply #19 on:** January 31, 2005, 11:09:07 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Saintaw
Yes, it looks like the FBI (Federal police?).

Well, if the FBI is going to use it, it must suck.

lasersailor184 · « **Reply #20 on:** January 31, 2005, 11:46:21 AM »

Yeah, the bullet will go through a bullet proof vest, but even when it gets through IT'S STILL A ****ING .22 CALIBER BULLET!

Most useless gun ever.

Btw, I have seen Berettas, but a majority of Kimbers.

The thing about bullet proof armor is that it only stops penetration of the bullet. It doesn't stop energy transfer.

Mini D · « **Reply #21 on:** January 31, 2005, 12:51:12 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
The feds have a history of jumping into untested and mostly worthless pistol designs.

10mm

patrone · « **Reply #22 on:** January 31, 2005, 01:15:58 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lasersailor184
Yeah, the bullet will go through a bullet proof vest, but even when it gets through IT'S STILL A ****ING .22 CALIBER BULLET!

Most useless gun ever.

The thing about bullet proof armor is that it only stops penetration of the bullet. It doesn't stop energy transfer.

IIRC, M16 is a ****ING .22 Caliber gun.

And what you say about about bodyarmour is not completly correct. It depends what kind of Armour. But a biger caliber would be as a sledgehammer, cause the enegy transfer is not enough.

I prefare biger caliber guns, all in all, but for policework, or I might say "special policework" there are situations when a 44 mag won´t be the ultimate gun, it might even be totaly useless in some cases.

I think the 10 mm Swedish Norma is a good choice as "allround" FBI , but the 5,7 to be used as a suplement.

There is a development going on with a Submachinegun that can switch from 9mm to a 6,5 mm, still it is a to big gun for "everyday" use.

lazs2 · « **Reply #23 on:** January 31, 2005, 02:30:04 PM »

patrone... to correct you slightly... A 44 mag will go through BOTH sides of an older American car. 9mm or 22 or 32 or 45 or most other things will go through the door skin, that is true but... They won't go throught the door skin, the rolled down window or it's braces and the door bracing and door panel/armrest.

If you are in a situation where a 44mag is "useless" then you really shouldn't be using a handgun for the situation.

lazs

patrone · « **Reply #24 on:** January 31, 2005, 02:48:21 PM »

As I have conducted ceveral test on bodyarmour for the use of UN in Bosnia (russian origin). 222, 357, 44 mag, 9mm, 30-06, 38 special, shootguns, you name it. I have seen the result with my own eyes and conducted the shooting as well.

I will claim that a 44 mag, will not shoot trough even the Class 2 west (without the keramic plates or steelplates).
It will knock the guy on his *** but not kill him, disable him (it might disable him, but might is not prefarable).

Theres one cure, aim for the head or the legs, but this is a true phycological thing, no one will do it. When facing a criminal with bodyarmour, the 44 mag, is totaly useless. I rather have a 9mm in that case. It has a biger chance of penetrating.

lazs2 · « **Reply #25 on:** January 31, 2005, 02:50:23 PM »

what loads were you using in the 44?

lazs

patrone · « **Reply #26 on:** January 31, 2005, 03:07:20 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
what loads were you using in the 44?

lazs

I can not answer you on straight hand about this. This was more then 10 years ago. It was "standard" Norma factory loads fired in a Desert eagle. It had some problems to reload at times, so maybe it was a little "weak". Semi wadcutters

Anyway, the 44 mag, didnt even dent the soapblock, whitch the 9mm P did (m/39 B was the "best", it penetrated. It even made a very serious dent in the steelplate)

hawker238 · « **Reply #27 on:** January 31, 2005, 04:08:08 PM »

aargghh... *mumble*.... damn liberals...... *arrrafmmmble*

J_A_B · « **Reply #28 on:** January 31, 2005, 04:22:47 PM »

Knocking the bad guy down and removing him as an immediate threat is the point. Whether the injury is fatal or not is a non-factor.

That's why I don't like the small caliber pistols--they are plenty lethal, but they don't have much in the way of immediate knockdown power. It's no help if the injury is fatal, if the guy can still kill a couple people before dying (look up the 1986 Miami shootout as an example of what I mean).

I use a .45 USP. I might consider carrying a .40, but no way I'd go with something as small or smaller than a 9mm.

J_A_B

patrone · « **Reply #29 on:** January 31, 2005, 04:41:17 PM »

I totaly agree with you J_A_B, 9 mm might lack to much of that "knock down" power that could be needed in a critical moment. How ever, 5,7 is bought by a reason, not just as a new toy. I think that FBI has just a little bit more knowledge then anyone on this bord when it comes to "knock down" power, bodyarmour and their special needs of this gun.
SissiGuns for sissipeople? I dont think so.......