Skuzzy...P38G skins question

[Guppy35]

With the small intake G model are you folks going to let the skinners do other small intake skins from the E,F, H to go along with the G?

Shape is identical, but it would allow some of the other birds to get done, such as the 54th FS P38Es that got the first kills of the war, or the early Hs that the 20th and 55th went to war in.

Jack Jenkin's P38H "Texas Ranger" was the first US fighter over Berlin, so that might be a nice skin to have as an example.

"Sad Sack", a P38F with the 82nd FG set some records for kills and longevity with that crew too and might be nice.

Jack Ilfrey's "Texas Terror" was an F model but also very well known to the 38 fans from the 1st FG in North Africa.

You get the idea

Dan/Slack

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

I'll second that motion. HTC has been generous enough to provide us with three P-38 models. Since there are only two distinct shapes, it would seem reasonable to allow any P-38D through P-38H skin to be applied to the P-38G we have.

[Waffle]

From what I understand - the new AH2 models are gonna be held to a higher quality and accuracy than previous skins... a little more quality control. And i believe I heard they weren't going to accept skins that were used on different models - IE p51c  / p38 E / Fs - or any model they are likely to add in the future. Which adding the other variants of 38s would be easier now that the bulk of the work is done.

[Krusty]

Except... There is no more need for any further P-38 models, so chances are they won't be adding anymore, and that the early intake-ed p38 skins would be acceptable on the G.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

There are two sides to the coin.

Now that we have the G-10-Lo, and the J-10-Lo, any other version of the P-38 could be added with very little detail work, since the big differences were radios and instruments. The E and F series could be produced by taking the ability to carry rockets off of the G, since the F models all eventually had the mounts for bombs or drop tanks, though few E and D models saw combat they are close enough to the F.



Add 100 HP to each engine of the G model and you have an H-1-Lo (add 90HP at military power) and an H-5-Lo.

But I agree that for now, provided we can use E through H skins on the G model, we have plenty of P-38's, although I had initially hoped for an H -5-Lo instead of the G-10-Lo we got.

[oboe]

I hope HTC takes it on a case by case basis rather than issuing a blanket ruling.

For example, practically, there is  no difference between the P-51B and P-51C.    One was manufactured in Texas; the other in Inglewood, CA, and that I understand is the reason for the separate designation.   But I think would be unfortunate to say that no '51C skins can be done for the '51B base.    That would rule out alot of nice skins.    

I have alot of books, but if we can't do P-38H or F skins on our P-38G base, the number of skins that I have information on shrinks drastically.

Guidelines from HTC would be helpful here.   I don't think skinners want to have to email HTC each time they consider a skin subject to see if its acceptable.     By the same token I bet HTC doesn't want to have to read though and answer all those emails.

[Skuzzy]

We are oboe.  No P38 variant skins folks.  Let's stick with what we have for right now.

There are very few planes we can allow to use variants of.  The P51C would be ok, as it is the same as the B, with different props,  The Spit 8 would be ok, as it is essentially identical to the Spit 9.

We really would like to avoid this all together, as we cannot say we will never do a particular model variant, but there are some which are highly unlikely.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

There are only two different shapes of the P-38, the H and earlier, and the J and later. Is that not similar enough to warrant allowing the same latitude as say the P-51B and P-51C? Or am I misunderstanding you?

[oboe]

Thanks Skuzzy, but....could you reconsider?

To put a number on my problem, which may also be a problem for other skinners - my P-38 resources are several Osprey books, David Donald's American Warplanes of WWII, and Gunston's Fighting Aircraft of WWII.   With this selection of books, I have a total of about 100 P-38 profile examples.   But only 8 of these are P-38Gs, and one of those is the AH2 default skin.

Perhaps the G suffers from middle child syndrome, I don't know But the vast majority of interesting skins for the small intake 38s seem to be in the F and H series.

Irv Ethell's "Tangerine" , Tom Lynch's shark-mouthed P-38H, Impossible Ince, 23 Ski Doo, Miss Fru Fru, Porky III - they'll all be precluded by this restriction.

Not sure how other skinners and guys with really big reference libraries feel about the paucity of good 'G' subjects.



EDIT:  It's a can of worms, Capt Hilts.   The shape of the 'G' may match the 'F' and 'H', but there are performance differences, as you noted.    Not so with the 51B and 51C.     I don't know if the performance differences are large enough to warrant modelling them - and that would be a shame because there are some cool skins for the F and H that we'd be missing out on.

Maybe we could do the F and H skins and then if they are ever modelled, the skins could be moved over to the proper model?

[Delirium]

Sorry Skuzzy, but I didn't understand you post... you can make a P51B/C or a Spit8/9 but they are identical visually.

Those H and earlier and the J and the L (except the leading edge landing light) are visually identical. It is even easier consideirng the P38s don't have the model ID after the 'P38' title in the game like some Spits do.

Not an attempt at a flame, just doesn't make sense to me.

[Skuzzy]

Now you are getting into one reason why we really want to avoid using skins from plane variants we have not modeled.  This exact scenario where some think it is ok, others not, and why not other..yada-yada-yada.

I'll ask Pyro to post tomorrow as to why he said no to this.

[Guppy35]

Porky II flown by Major Ed Cragg of the 80th FS Headhunters is a perfect example.  I've seen it ID'd as a G and as an H.

Serial number doesn't show on the aircraft as they replaced it with an ID letter on the tail.  

It does lead to some confusion as they would have flown a mix of F, G, H in the different squadrons and groups.

Dan/Slack

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Skuzzy
Now you are getting into one reason why we really want to avoid using skins from plane variants we have not modeled.  This exact scenario where some think it is ok, others not, and why not other..yada-yada-yada.

I'll ask Pyro to post tomorrow as to why he said no to this.

Thank you Skuzzy, I'd certainly like to hear Pyro's reasoning. I can try to understand the position, whether I agree with it or not.

It is likely we'll never see a D or E model (very low numbers in service, and I can agree with this as a reason not to do them), but possibly an F and/or an H. There is not really a serious performance difference between an F and a G. There is between a G and an H. For purposes of in game identification, I don't think skins are useful, as you can't really see distinct differences in the skins, unless they are drasticly different (such as an OD scheme versus natural aluminum).

Again, I'm really not wanting to argue, I just want to completely understand the reasons for the decision.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Guppy35
Porky II flown by Major Ed Cragg of the 80th FS Headhunters is a perfect example.  I've seen it ID'd as a G and as an H.

Serial number doesn't show on the aircraft as they replaced it with an ID letter on the tail.  

It does lead to some confusion as they would have flown a mix of F, G, H in the different squadrons and groups.

Dan/Slack

Indeed.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Skuzzy
We are oboe.  No P38 variant skins folks.  Let's stick with what we have for right now.

There are very few planes we can allow to use variants of.  The P51C would be ok, as it is the same as the B, with different props,  The Spit 8 would be ok, as it is essentially identical to the Spit 9.

We really would like to avoid this all together, as we cannot say we will never do a particular model variant, but there are some which are highly unlikely.

Actually the Spit VIII and Spit IX are very different externally depending on which timeframe the IX is from.  The VIII had the pointed tail, small span ailerons, retractable tailwheel, and only the Universal wing as well as the tropical filter.

The early IX didn't have the filter, pointed tail, small ailerons, retractable tail wheel etc.

That being said, it seemed a nice compromise on HTC's part so that skins from the Pacific Spits could be introduced.

This would be the same logic I'd use for the early 38s.  If not you essentially eliminate any 8th AF skins on an early 38 outside of the J.  You limit the number of skins of well known aces who flew the early models F-H etc.

There is no external differences between the F G and H unlike the Spit VIII and IX.

Dan/Slack
Who is still very appreciative of all the work that went into getting us these new 38s