Author Topic: Germany's Socialisim, Or how I learned to love democracy. (Read 1821 times)

mora · « **Reply #75 on:** February 03, 2005, 04:21:10 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by straffo
average Worker : 1200 € in EU

That's the average minimum wage, right?

straffo · « **Reply #76 on:** February 03, 2005, 04:31:21 AM »

I heard this but I'm not sure see this :

http://www.fedee.com/minwage.html

CyranoAH · « **Reply #77 on:** February 03, 2005, 05:09:11 AM »

Minimum wage in Spain is around 550 €

Daniel

straffo · « **Reply #78 on:** February 03, 2005, 06:14:34 AM »

Per month

leitwolf · « **Reply #79 on:** February 03, 2005, 06:34:48 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by beet1e
leitwolf,

How much of Germany's current economic difficulties (6m unemployed) do you feel is due to Germany having accepted the euro single currency, and having surrendered control of interest rates to Brussels?

It has nothing to do with the Euro, its a domestic screwup and started before the Euro was introduced.
Lacking control over the currency, actually getting out of it is more difficult in the Euro days, of course.
Having said that, the actual cause of the problems are not due to interest rates or the Euro, messing with them will not provide a long term growth anyway as the reasons for Germany's economic struggle today are complex and deeply rooted.

Schutt · « **Reply #80 on:** February 03, 2005, 06:59:08 AM »

I am having a problem with the title of the thread, as there is not really scialism in germany, but nevermind that.

Economic problems stem not only from the demographic problem but also from huge problems due to the reuinion with former east germany, big tax and loan burdons where created there.
Also a lot of property was given away cheap to investment groups and big western companies, a lot of real estate given away under price.

Overall i think the euro did not change much in terms of the unemployment.

airguard · « **Reply #81 on:** February 03, 2005, 07:25:36 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by GScholz
There seems to be a lot of confusion about terminology like "socialism" and "democracy". Socialism is not a government form, it is a socioeconomic ideology. Democracy is not a socioeconomic ideology, it is a government form. Socialism is not the "opposite" of democracy. Socialism is perhaps the "opposite" of capitalism.

And btw. as many Americans have pointed out; the USA is not a democracy. It is a republic.

Well said, I never been able to put down to the paper the way you did.

Then again Im a engineer not a economist or a master in politics.

airguard · « **Reply #82 on:** February 03, 2005, 07:44:14 AM »

Men du gjør det da faen så bra, flott skrevet og fortsett slik.
Mine innlegg blir ofte litt klønete, men er jo velment fra min side da (problemer med norsk til engelsk tenker jeg). Noen ganger går jeg også over streken men sånn er jo livet.

beet1e · « **Reply #83 on:** February 03, 2005, 09:16:44 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by leitwolf
It has nothing to do with the Euro, its a domestic screwup and started before the Euro was introduced.
Lacking control over the currency, actually getting out of it is more difficult in the Euro days, of course.
Having said that, the actual cause of the problems are not due to interest rates or the Euro, messing with them will not provide a long term growth anyway as the reasons for Germany's economic struggle today are complex and deeply rooted.

Fair enough - I'm not trolling, by the way.

But given that Germany is in this self created mess, would it not have been possible to dig their way out of it, by varying interest rates to stimulate the economy, if interest rates were still under German control?

My reason for asking was that OUR economy went down the crapper (twice) when we tried to follow German interest rates.

1989, Germany economy slumped, interest rate reduced, so Britain reduced interest rate to shadow German rate, but Britain was booming. Result - too much money in the economy, borrowing got totally out of control, property prices soared to unrealistic and unsustainable values. The fuse was lit on the negative equity time bomb...
The bomb goes off. Britain is in the ERM, but £ (GBP) was valued at too high a level. Value of GBP unsustainable. Chancellor tried to boost value of GBP by cranking up interest rates. But Britain was in recession. Property values plummeted, millions left in negative equity, thousands of small businesses bankrupted by high interest rates. Britain booted out of the ERM. GBP dropped in value from $2 to $1.53 overnight. "Je ne regrette rien" was our chancellor's epitaph.

These are the reasons I shiver at the thought of centralised currency, and centralised control of interest rates.

airguard · « **Reply #84 on:** February 03, 2005, 10:00:05 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by GScholz
Joda, jeg kan da vel ikke kalle meg typograf og avismann hvis jeg skriver dårlig ... eller? Jeg kan litt om alt, men ikke så mye om hvær enkelt ting.

Du skriver da bra du, gjør deg forstått og det er jo poenget. At du skriver (og høres ut) som en søring er jo ikke noe du kan for.

pøkk

sender otto jespersen på deg jeg hehe ;D

Monk · « **Reply #85 on:** February 03, 2005, 10:40:23 AM »

The average german would not have much of an idea anyways, since the "Giftzwerg" still lives in their media.

Believe only what we tell you.

rshubert · « **Reply #86 on:** February 03, 2005, 11:45:22 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Gh0stFT
yes, its pure BS
and what with this "high unemploymrnt rates which makes finding a job difficult" ?
nothing have changed since the new welfare reform,
only numbers changed, some former unemployment people who
got help from social care, didnt counted as real unemployment,
the new reform just count this people in.
So what really changed are only numbers, but everything is
same as before.
I still have my Job (where i'm really happy to work at)
and i can afford some hobbys too! and the best thing is
nobody forces me to get a job in the sex industry LOL

R
GhostFT

Ghost, what part is "pure BS"? Can we address the issue of the unemployed IT professional who was referred to a job as a hooker, then threatened with loss of benefits?

Are you saying it did not happen, and the news report is false? Or are you saying that our conclusions are wrong? Which is it?

Just speak to the subject, man. What do you think about the woman in the news article?

Monk · « **Reply #87 on:** February 03, 2005, 11:52:17 AM »

oops......

Jobless, Permanently?
Long-term unemployed (12 months or more) as a percentage of total unemployed, 2002

U.S. 8.6%
Britain 23.1%
Japan 30.8%
France 33.8%
Germany 47.9%
Italy 59.2%

indy007 · « **Reply #88 on:** February 03, 2005, 01:20:50 PM »

Showed this article to some people at work. The first comment I got was "She shoulda taken the job, those are skills she could use the rest of her life."

My comment was, "Who wants to go in with me & open up a potatohouse in Germany? Appearently the government does the pimping for you."

leitwolf · « **Reply #89 on:** February 03, 2005, 01:43:23 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by beet1e

[..]snip[..]

But given that Germany is in this self created mess, would it not have been possible to dig their way out of it, by varying interest rates to stimulate the economy, if interest rates were still under German control?

I think every country has their share of home grown screwups.
I was a bit sceptical myself before we switched to the Euro; we had a lot of BS floating around the press spreading fears of massive inflation. (which tends to frighten people in Germany a lot - the economic disaster and skyrocketing inflation in the 1920s played no small part in the collapse of the democracy in the 1930s and has not been forgotten, on top of that each currency is part of a nation's identity, in case of Germany the surprisingly quick post-war recovery )
There were also doubts as to who would benefit from joining the Euro zone given the fact that many countrys had "softer" money with bigger inflation than Germany, many politicians were calling for stronger regulations and higher standards to make the Euro as stable as the Mark.
The irony now is that the Euro turns out to be rock solid and it's actually Germany which can't live up to the standards they had been calling for.

I'm by no means an expert but my two (euro-)cents are:
European markets are now so strongly tied to each other that probability of a single country being able to maintain economic growth or recession out of sync with the others for an extended period of time is very low.
I'm quite sure at some point the Euro will be used as tool to ensure economic growth just like every nation's currency is.
I think it's safe to say on a short term the Euro doesnt help because a single government does not have control over it, but like I said, Germany's problem's are not going to be solved by quickly dropping interest rates a little and hope for the best, it requires a lot more than that. The Mark wouldn't have helped either.

Besides, I am a big fan of the Euro and being able to travel across Europe without the hassle of exchanging money is a big improvement. Get with the program!

Quote

Originally posted by beet1e
Fair enough - I'm not trolling, by the way.

No, but you do ask questions which reveal your agenda