lag-roll vrs. high yoyo or extend

[terracota]

ok tnx's andy for the diagrmas, now I fell better  
and now I have a very dumb question  

how the hell I calculate my closure rate???
ok I watch my speed about 400 so ya said should be about 100 knots the closure rate how I now that??
some easy explanation please?

 

Originally posted by Eagler:
Great diagrams!! Thanks. Is there a way one of you guys who knows what these maneuvers should look like could possibly post films of them i.e. lag roll, vector roll, etc.. I have an idea but could be way out in left field. Appreciate it in advance.
Eagler

eagler
I have a film showing the lag roll these was a training sesion with rocket, the only problem is that he tolds me to fly straigth (that way I can see how he perform it) if ya want it send me a mail and i will try to send the film to ya soom  

[Andy Bush]

That number is just an estimate of a typical engagement situation. If you are diving down on a bandit, you can expect to going faster than he is...assuming he is in level flight.

Typical level flight speeds run from 250mph to 350mph, depending on altitude...so 400mph would result in about a 100mph closure in a tail chase situation.

The real point is to watch your closure...that means that you may not want to leave the throttle at WEP all the time!

The range icons can give you a feel for closure. If the range is decreasing very rapidly, then you may want to slow your closure down with a throttle reduction or a yo-yo. Extra speed may be nice...but too much speed can be counter-productive!

Andy

[Duckwing6]

Thanks Andy .. was generaly doing just that (going high) and just wondered if i could utilize a lag/vector roll there better but just didn't time it ok .. or somehow else screwed it up  

i guess with the very tight turning planes as adversaries going pure vertical is the best choice.. think you called it piruette right ?

[Andy Bush]

DW

The 'pirouette' is an unloaded roll and not an actual BFM maneuver in its own right.

It is used in maneuvers such as the High Yo-Yo. Once the pilot has maneuvered out of plane, he can unload and then roll the a/c to orient his lift vector...this is the 'pirouette' you refer to.

Andy

[Lephturn]

Andy,

Yep, I understand where you are coming from there.  I agree, the yo-yo is definately an easier manuever to use if you are a beginner.  I just wanted to point out that folks should give the lag rolls a try when they feel comfortable with the view system.    I think we are on the same page here.

DW6:  Keep testing the lag rolls.  They take practice and careful setup to do right, but when they work ooooooh baby. <G>  Feel free to setup some time with me in the Training Arena if you want to work on them.

------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com


"My P-47 is a pretty good ship, she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip.
Just thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip, always got me through so far."
 - Steve Earl

[Duckwing6]

Chief trainer training trainers  

Well i'll try Lepth . but i guess i'll stick with less agressive moves .. it's better suited for D Hogs

[terracota]

there should be some trick to dont loose enemy sigth when lag-rolling  

I hate this padlock system , because I get more losed and I dont now why  

[This message has been edited by terracota (edited 10-12-2000).]

[Minotaur]

Wow cool discussion!

 

By Andy Bush:
Anyway...I think you guys have a good handle on this. The problem in AH isn't the BFM...it's the management of the views to keep the bandit in sight while maneuvering effectively.

This is my #1 problem with lag rolls.  After the roll away then back in you spend too much time re-acquiring the target.  The time spent re-acquiring and not manuvering seems to destroy the manuver timing.  Often the bandit is not right where you think it should be.  Padlock does not work, because when you roll away it un-locks.

Andy;

For a dummy here, can you go over the difference between:

• Aspect Angle
• Angle Off

I understand it to mean this:

• Angle Off - The angle difference between my nose to the bandit.
• Aspect angle - The angle difference between where my nose is pointed and where the bandits nose is pointed.

Sorry I am slow.    

As for attacking when I have closure and angle problems to solve I always think of this line in R. Shaw's book Fighter Combat.

 

By Robert Shaw
In addition to chasing the pipper, another common mistake made in this process is getting into the targets plane of turn too early.  The opponent must be beaten first, and then shot.

page 18

Check me out in my thinking here.  I will assume that my atttack comes from behind the 3-9 line.  If I want to get into lag or pure pursuit and have lots of closure I will go high (Yo-Yo or Lag) hoping to come around to the bandits cold side.  If I want to into lead pursuit and have little closure I will go low (Yo-Yo) coming into his hot side.

Generally I understand that:

• High - Reduces closure, puts you in lag pursuit
• Low - Increases closure, puts you in lead pursuit

Both are designed to cut the corner and reduce angle.  Since you generally start with high closures for your initial attack.  First you move into a lag position by the use of high manuvers.  Then to get lead for a shot you would use a low manuver or just saddle up.  Am I correct or way out there?

Thanks in advance!    

------------------
Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Anyway, more golf..."
Humble

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 10-12-2000).]

[Lephturn]

Mino wrote:  

Generally I understand that:


High - Reduces closure, puts you in lag pursuit

Low - Increases closure, puts you in lead pursuit
Both are designed to cut the corner and reduce angle. Since you generally start with high closures for your initial attack. First you move into a lag position by the use of high manuvers. Then to get lead for a shot you would use a low manuver or just saddle up. Am I correct or way out there?

That sounds correct to me.  You use any lag manuever to decrease closure and prevent an overshoot.  You use high yo-yo's not only as a lag manuever, but also to try to do more of your turning in the verticle using roll, and less e-burning flat turning.  Same thing with a low yo-yo.  You have the basics correct though.  I would come in faster than a target and use high yo-yo's to avoid overshooting while I gain position.  Once I am ready for the kill, I may use a low yo-yo if I need to increase my closure to get closer for the kill shot and pull lead at the same time.

------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com


"My P-47 is a pretty good ship, she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip.
Just thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip, always got me through so far."
 - Steve Earl

[Andy Bush]

Mino

The definitions of angle off and aspect angle are always confusing!

Angle off is basically a measure of heading difference. It does not take into account the relative positions of the two a/c...only their respective headings. Angle off can be measured using the two a/c compasses. The heading of one minus the heading of the other equals angle off.

Aspect angle is a measure of position. It has nothing to do with relative headings. Aspect angle, by definition, is measured from the tail of the target. An arc is drawn from the target tail around to the position of the attacker. The number of degrees in the arc equals the aspect angle.

Both angle off and aspect angle have values from 0-180 degrees. Aspect angle, because it is a measure of position, also includes a 'left' or 'Right' label to indicate which side of the target that the attacker is on.

These terms are usually defined in 2 dimensional terms, but the terms can also be used when thinking in 3 dimensions...the person speaking just has to be very clear in his use of these terms.

Let's look at this MiG-21. The aspect angle here is 90 Right...meaning your position is 90 degrees from his tail on his right side. If you were looking at him thru your gunsight, your angle off would be about 90 degrees as well.

BUT...if you were flying formation with him and had your fuselage perfectly aligned with him, your angle off would be zero (you are on the same heading). Your aspect angle, however, would still be the same since your heading is not a consideration, only your position relative to the MiG.

 

You seem to have the yo-yos well in hand. A Low Yo-Yo is a form of an acceleration maneuver. It is meant to gain closure and uses lead pursuit to do this. A High Yo-Yo is often used to reduce closure. It uses an out-of-plane maneuver (the pull up) to decrease relative closure. By definition, any out-of-plane maneuver is lag pursuit. The High Yo-Yo also can be used to solve high aspect/angle off situations...it does this by gaining additional turning room 'in the vertical'. In most cases, the High Yo-Yo ends with the pilot returning to lead pursuit.

I realize that these terms can get very academic, but, in the real world, we had to very precise with our words, particularly in an instructional setting. Trying to build a 3 dimensional picture in someone's mind using terms such as 'whifferdill' may sound neat at the bar, but leaves a lot to be desired when someone is trying to figure out exactly what you mean.

Lastly...on the subject of BFM and sims...the real issue for us is not only to use the correct terms, but also is to describe exactly how we use the viewing system to fly a given maneuver. It has seemed to me to be easy to describe a High Yo-Yo in an academic sense...and something entirely different when it comes to teaching someone how to do it in a sim.

Andy

[Minotaur]

Thanks Lep and Andy.  A little clearer now. It has taken me severaly years to rudimentarily grasp these concepts.

 

By Andy Bush
Lastly...on the subject of BFM and sims...the real issue for us is not only to use the correct terms, but also is to describe exactly how we use the viewing system to fly a given maneuver. It has seemed to me to be easy to describe a High Yo-Yo in an academic sense...and something entirely different when it comes to teaching someone how to do it in a sim.

I have to agree with you on that.  

The last jet sim I played was Falcon 4.0, which has a very good padlock.  You can see how your plane manuvers directly in proportion to the bandit.  

Snap views do not really give you the same feel .  This IMO is because the bandit moves within the view for "snap views" vs the the view moving and the bandit remaining stationary for "padlock views".

Padlock gives a better feel for manuvers relative to your plane.  Easier in my mind to get a fix on the angles.  

Sadly....  In a multi-plane envoirment the interface for padlock is too clunky to be effective.  

One last question.  How do military / civilian simulators simulate the padlocking ability of a human pilot?  Multiple screens or some sort of VR helmet?

------------------
Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Anyway, more golf..."
Humble

[Andy Bush]

The problems associated with internal views are the main reason why I have encouraged the use of the 'player to target' external view.

I am well aware of the objections to this view. Anyone interested in my reasoning can find it in my BFM 101 and Perspectives series of articles at SimHQ.com.

As I see it, a major impediment to achieving the sense of what a real world pilot feels when he is flying 3D BFM lies in the orientation of our monitors to where we sit. No matter what attitude we fly our aircraft into...and no matter what view choice we make...the monitor is still directly in front of us. We may be looking at a picture of our deep six but our 'body position' remains straight ahead.

I think this difference between perceived sight line and actual head/monitor position creates a spatial orientation problem that is very difficult for the typical simmer to overcome. The real world pilot has no such problem...he may be looking to hix six, but his body is always very aware of the fact that he (and the a/c) remain pointed forward.
As a result, it is much more intuitive for the real world pilot to remain oriented while padlocked on the bandit.

For us simmers to avoid this problem, we would need to have outselves seated in a fixed position with a monitor that is free to move about that position. Imagine a sphere with ourselves in the center...the monitor would move about the surface of the sphere.

Some military sims use a similar strategy in placing the pilot inside a faceted array of screens. It works fairly well. Even civilian airline sims do this to a limited degree.

But no sim is going to replicate the sense of G and acceleration forces that make up much of what the real world pilot uses to orient himself.

Andy  

[qts]

This type of thread is of the main reasons I peruse the fora.

Carry on, gentlemen!

[Lepton]

A brief comment to something Terracota said earlier when talking about practicing Lag Rolls against a straight and level target. So far this discussion has been about using these rolls against a turning target, and frankly, 99% of the time, that's what you get. If the guy sees you, he's not going fly neatly along in a straight line. Therefore, we know to roll opposite the direction of his turn, etc.

If, however, the target is flying straight (I struggle a bit here, maybe a sleeping C47) and you want to vector roll to control closure, then you need to pull up and off the line of flight. Left or right is up to you.

So, if the target is turning, you just pull up and roll opposite of the bandit, put your lift vector on him and pull. If the target is straight and level, you need to pull up and off to one side as you roll in that same direction. This might help clear up a little of the confusion I thought I detected in Terracota's post.

[terracota]

thnks lepton , now have the whole thing of lag-roll's more clear  
now I just have to practice the real thing