lag-roll vrs. high yoyo or extend

[terracota]

hello there  

I 'm a little lose,when should I use the hi yoyo or when the lag roll or extend?
here's what I think :

in the first stage of the figth I have the E advantage (alt) Im flying the f4ud
them I start my dive the con usually split-s I extend a little them zoom, I do the same 1 or 2 more times, usually I never kill anybody at this part of the fight , them when I have losed some E I start high yoyos when I see about 600-700 behind the enemy and he breaks I do the h-yoyo. to not overshot.
so in which part of this figth should I use the lag-roLL ? when is better the lag roll tham the high yoyo? how many times should I extend and zoom before the star of one of these maneuvers??

tnx's for the help

[Rocket]

For me the hi and lo yoyo are used to cut the corner on a turn.  I use the lag roll or variantions of it to keep from overshooting my dinner when he makes a break turn.  I try never to follow a bogey into a split s.  I usually can't follow right on his 6 anyway as I am faster than he is when he makes the manuever.  I try to either a. extend b. pull up slightly and bank over so I can watch where he went and decide if I have an option to re-engage with advantage still. If in the hog you are going against a better turning plane I would watch that he isn't trying to drag you down to ground level where he can drag you into an angles fight where he has the advantage.  I try to make my extends with about 3-5k seperation if I feel the enemy has a good amount of E.  I will make them less if I KNOW I have the E advantage.


I may be way off base here and if some of the other guys could give their take on it from a more experienced, better ACM fluent view would help  

S!

Rocket

------------------

VMF-115 Joe's Jokers-RD AH DIV
Fierce and Bold
With Honour and Courage
_______________________

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[Duckwing6]

where's andy when we need him ?  

I would say the basic difference here is that the LAG-ROLL would be a lot more offensive .. it will give your opponent no time to recover unlike when you zoom up in a high yo yo where he usually has some seconds to level out and pick-up speed ..

The downside is that flying the F4U-1D you will not have a lot of tries if you are after one of the T&B planes in here and you miss the shot after your lag-roll because you will not have the energy "banked" as with the High yo yo . if done right you should be able to B&Z a spit forever with high yo yos in the F4U.

Also a point in when to use what would be the angle difference ... because when your bogie is already very far around his break turn (big angle difference) i'd rather go for yo yo .. because if you don't time the lagroll well you might still overshoot .. or have to use a lot of E bleeding G to stay in behind .. (another no no in F4U)

DW6

[Andy Bush]

I'm right here!!

Duckwing has it right. The main difference between when to use the High Yo-Yo or the Lag Roll is in the angular difference between the two aircraft fuselages...ie, their angle off.

Use the Lag Roll to control closure when at LOW angle off...roughly 30 degrees or less. Use the High Yo-Yo to control closure and reduce aspect when at HIGH angle off...anything over 30 degrees. (Note - these numbers are approximations only and will vary with closure, angle off, and range.)

I suggest that the High Yo-Yo be the maneuver to use in AH to control excessive angle off and closure. Why? Because the snap viewing system is easier to use when flying the High Yo-Yo. The Lag Roll is more disorienting and is a more difficult maneuver to fly. The High Yo-Yo is more forgiving of pilot error.

How do you know when to initiate the High Yo-Yo? In a high closure situation (such as when you are diving down on an opponent), begin the maneuver as soon as you see either of two things. One...the bandit goes into a hard break...you will probably be unable to remain inside his turn circle, therefore you should get turning room by maneuvering out of plane as soon as you see the break. Two...anytime you see more than 30 degrees angle off (regardless of aspect angle), you might consider a yo-yo to reduce this angle off.

Hope this helps. If not, tell me what you do not understand, and I'll try again.

Andy

[terracota]

ok great help all
here's what I understanded:

1) I dive to enemies 6 I have a lot of speed I try to never exceed the 400 this is a tip from "AMMO"   ,them if I have enougth lead angle more tham 30 degress aot and the enemy breaks is better to perform a lag roll, if I dont have enougth lead angle less tham 30 aot and enemy breaks better a h-yoyo?
I'm rigth guys?? andy??

ok here I go with 2 questions about that:

1) what happens if the enemy flies straigth Im about 500 near guns range so here comes the question he will turn? have he the E to break turn?? if not I eat him
but if is a trap? and he turns just at guns range I will overshot and he can kill me.
so is there some tip to prevent any of the 2 options?? is the lag roll usefull here? or better zoom

2) I saw in other post that if the enemy turns left I must lag roll rigth or turn to the other side he turns, I tried that the other day and if I turn to the other side I never can keep an eye on him, so if I turn to his same side I can track him, why everybody says ya must turn to the other side of his turn??  

I was practicing the lag roll with ROCKET the other day and he never turns to the other side of the enemy turn, the drone was me in a straigth fly . was because I flied straight? ROCKET???

tnx for the help

[Andy Bush]

terracota

here is a diagram to help you.

 

For your second question, first of all, you want to control your airspeed as you dive down on your target. 50-100 mph closure is all you need. Anything more will reduce your tracking time and make it harder to aim accurately. It will also tend to make you overshoot more easily. Control your closure in the dive by reducing your throttle initially...then, as you level out, add power back in to hold your speed.

The Lag Roll that you describe should be called a Vector Roll when you want to control closure. A Lag Roll is better used to control excessive aspect angle. The two maneuvers are somewhat similar...the Vector Roll is an aggressive, relatively high G maneuver initiated from low angle off situations, while the Lag Roll is a lazy, low G maneuver used in high aspect angle situations.

In either case, you always roll AWAY from the target. If the target is turning left, you roll right...always...no exceptions!!

It is a disorienting maneuver, as I said in my first post. That is why I recommend the High Yo-Yo instead of the Vector/Lag Roll.

Andy

[Rocket]

Thanks for the clarification Andy.
This is what I was thinking of but don't have the vocabulary to put it down correctly.

When I am coming in behind a con  7:30 to 4:30 roughly I pull up and roll my cockpit slowly till I have the con in my top view while climbling to seperate.  Once I see which way he went I continue to roll over until I am attacking from behind.  I create vertical seperation this way and recover E and speed on the dive back in.  If I am attacking from 3/9 and the con breaks then I pull up and gain seperation and back down to cut the corner while not losing too much E.  
Does this sound correct or am I way off base?

Rocket

[Duckwing6]

Ahh and here i come Andy  

now for the LAG roll .. assume the following:

i'm in an F4U closing with very low AOT on a SPit or Niki with some 100 mph closure. I fly the D so i have to wait till i'm pretty close in to make the cal 50s count, e.g. i'll hold fire till approx 400 - 450 yards..

So usually if he sees me he'll start a hard break turn at 1k - 700 yards distance .. now to get the lag roll right do i have to wait a bit before starting ? how far do i pull the nose up ? what kind of G am i aiming for ? How far (degrees) do i pull the nose of the targets original flight path ?

It was a LOT easier to fly lagrolls in 1.03 as they couldn't sustain the hard G breaks for that long .. but now a spit can yank around a circle with very hard G in no time and be manouverable enough afterwards to make any guns solution a wish  

DW6

[Andy Bush]

Rocket

Sounds like you are doing just fine to me...get out of plane...look for turning room in the vertical...throw a lead turn in for good measure...text book BFM. Hard to argue with this. Good on ya!

Duckwing

I don't like to prescribe an exact answer for any BFM situation...there may well be several choices to pick from!

Your situation sounds like a closure problem. As I have said, the Lag Roll is not a closure problem solver...instead, it is designed to deal with excessive aspect. I'm including two diagrams that I hope shed a little light on the difference between a Lag Roll and a Vector Roll.

It's the Vector Roll that I think you have in mind. You come smoking in on the bandit when he lays a hard turn on you. For the first few seconds, you still remain at relatively low angle off...but your aspect is changing rapidly..and along with it, your closure. You need something to halt your forward movement and keep you close to the bandit's six. The Vector Roll is one way to do this (there are others!).

To perform the Vector Roll, you blend in 3-5 Gs (in other words, a hard turn...don't stall the a/c!)) as you initiate a roll opposite the bandit turn direction. So your nose is coming up and you are rolling at the same time. This rotation of your lift vector will cause a reduction in closure two ways. First, the drag associated with the rolling G will bleed knots. Second, the rotation of your velocity vector will cause a geometric reduction in closure...you will be flying a longer flight path relative to the bandit.

The idea is to roll away from the bandit aggressively ...then continue the roll under G until you have your lift vector back on him.

Please note...under the situation that you describe, I might not do a rolling maneuver. Instead, I might opt for a Quarter Plane that preserves my 3/9 line separation while gaining me turning room above the bandit's turn plane.

Anyway...I think you guys have a good handle on this. The problem in AH isn't the BFM...it's the management of the views to keep the bandit in sight while maneuvering effectively.

 

 

Andy

[Rocket]

Andy,

  Thank you very much for the diagrams.  I have always flown seat of the pants and the correct verbage sometimes fails me   By your explaination and diagrams I have been doing both and just not known the names  

  And to go over a point that you said Always roll opposite as the con!!!!  Whenever I lose the fight it is becuase I rolled with the con and watching the films I realized it and have a big hammer sitting next to the desk that I clobber myself with when it happens  

S!
Rocket

ps. Thanks again Andy.!

[Duckwing6]

I really dig those diagrams you're producing there in no time Andy, Thanks a lot!

What i was more relating too was the very high turn performance disparity between the faster F4U (for example) and the SPit.. he can basically creat a very high AOT situation in no time and i was wondering if a LAG roll would be the right move to start getting into lag pursuit.. (the other problem would then be getting a guns sollution tho  



[This message has been edited by Duckwing6 (edited 10-10-2000).]

[Lephturn]

Great diagrams.  

I will note however, that Andy's comment about the view system is a very personal thing.  If you are very comfortable with the snap-view system, feel free to use a lag-displacement roll when appropriate.  Yes, those type of rolls can be more demanding, but that gives you something new to learn. :-)  I love lag-rolling manuevers, and they are key to winning when you are flying a plane with a dis-advantage in turning ability.

Andy does have a point, but don't let it stop you from learning how to use lag-rolls.    If you come from WB or similar games and are used to this view system as I am, you will not have a problem tracking the bogey.

BTW Andy, there is a padlock in AH now.  Doesn't that solve your objections to the view system?

------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com


"My P-47 is a pretty good ship, she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip.
Just thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip, always got me through so far."
 - Steve Earl

[Eagler]

Great diagrams!! Thanks. Is there a way one of you guys who knows what these maneuvers should look like could possibly post films of them i.e. lag roll, vector roll, etc.. I have an idea but could be way out in left field. Appreciate it in advance.
Eagler

[RBNN]

Thanks for the great pics Andy.

Very helpful

[Andy Bush]

Lephturn

Sorry...I didn't mean to sound negative. I was trying to suggest that (for the beginner) the yo-yo would be an easier maneuver to fly using the snap views. Why? Because it requires fewer changes in the position of the lift vector. As I see it, it is the rotation of the lift vector that creates disorientation when using snap views...the less the lift vector is moved, the better the chances of remaining positionally oriented.

Duckwing

Let's take the situation you mentioned. In it, you are outside the Spit's turn circle when it goes into the break. The Spit should be able to generate a turn radius of less than 1000'.

Prior to the Spit's break, your closure was maybe 100mph, let's say. But a few seconds after the break, your closure will have increased substantially since your aspect has changed from a six position to one on the Spit's beam.

At the same time, the Spit is moving from your gunsight area out to the edge of the monitor screen. The only way to bring the Spit back towards the center of your screen is to point your lift vector at it and then pull.

A rolling maneuver does just the opposite...it rolls your lift vector away from the Spit. In addition, during the rolling maneuver, your flight path tends to remain in the general direction that it was to begin with. The end result is a flight path overshoot.

The issue here is one of maneuver choice. We choose our BFM maneuver based on what the bandit does. We can choose from maneuvers that deal with positional problems (aspect and angle off), closure problems, or both.

In this case, we have both a closure problem, an aspect problem, and an angle off problem all happening in a very short period of time. This is deep doo-doo!

While there are few absolutes in BFM, in general, rolling maneuvers best are used in short range, low aspect situations when the goal is to control closure. If the aspect angle is increasing rapidly, then other solutions offer a better chance to retain the offense.

Often referred to as 'out-of-plane' maneuvers, these include the High Yo-Yo and the Quarter Plane. The Quarter Plane is really an exaggerated high yo-yo and is often seen as a last ditch maneuver to keep from losing nose/tail separation.

In the situation you describe (high closure, short range, and rapidly building aspect angle), you may have better luck using a yo-yo type of maneuver. I'm not saying a rolling maneuver won't 'work'...I'm just suggesting that a yo-yo maneuver would be easier for many to visualize and execute.

Anyway...I love you guy's enthusiasm...I hope I haven't muddied the water too much!!

Andy