P-38G spin recovery

[Oldman731]

Last night I thought I'd try one of the 38Gs again.  I met Soda, immediately pulled too tight, stalled and promptly entered a right-hand spin.  Alt was probably around 5k.  Some time later, despite my best efforts, we made a smoking hole in a nice meadow.

I'm certainly no hot-shot pilot, but it's a rare spin that I can't at least almost get out of within 5k.  So I took off, climbed to 5k, and deliberately put it into a spin, figuring that this time I would be alert and ready for it.  In fact, this time the smoking hole was created in the middle of a pretty green forest.

"Third try is the charm," I mumbled to myself, so I tried it again from 5k, with the same result (I was so angry by then that I took no notice of where the third smoking hole appeared, but likely it was a church).

While engaged in this exercise, I mentioned the issue to Jamusta, who was in the CT at the same time.  He is a much better pilot than I am, with more experience in the 38G.  So he started trying spin recovery.  So far as I could tell, he was having the same results as I had when I checked out for the night.

So:  What is the secret to spin recovery in the 38G?  Anyone know?

- oldman

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

The P-38, (All models) suffers from a bizarre unrecoverable spin. There are those that will say "You just don't know how to fly it or you just don't know what you are doing", but that spin exists, I've tried to recover from as high as 15K and not pulled out.

I'll loosely repeat what the P-38 test pilots said about spin recovery here, and later, I'll post it directly from the book at home.

If you enter a spin, pull the throttles to idle, pull up the flaps if they are down, as this will delay recovery, and do not attempt recovery until after at least one full turn. Apply full opposite rudder against the spin and hold the column neutral. It should stop spinning after one to three turns. Then gently apply backward pressure on the yoke, and it will stay nose down and gain speed. Once it reaches about 150, push the yoke forward and build a little speed, then pull back gently, as you may cause another stall and a spin in the opposite direction.

Now, that is NOT a direct quote, but rather a paraphrase from what I learned from the test pilot reports, and from what P-38 combat pilots told me as well.

I know that many of the die heard P-38 pilots here have said the same thing about the spins. But evidently, those of us who fly it constantly, and research it thoroughly, know nothing at all about it.

[Guppy35]

Yep, everyone whose flown an AH 38 has probably experienced that spin.

Were you using flaps at the time?  The auto retract can apparently trigger that spin if they suddenly retract.

Had one of those spins just the other night.   Then again I'm not flying enough so that I suck even worse then usual so it's to be expected

Mossie has the same gawd awful spin too

Dan/Slack

[Shane]

i dunno, didn't seem too complicated to me... opposite aileron (with probably a little rudder) with a little nose down...

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/170_1107368990_film46.zip

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/170_1107369025_film47.zip


couldn't replicate an inverted spin to attempt recovery from.

connection *does* have a role in this, i.e., if you're losing packets or kind of laggy you end up over inputting, furthering the spin, pretty much like overcontrolling a skidding car.

having said this, i have entered non-recoverable spins from time to time in a variety of planes.

[lasersailor184]

Yeah, as long as I have at least 4k of alt, I have no problem getting out of it.


The trick is the remember that your plane isn't necessarily flying straight, nor at any speed once you stop spinning.

It took me the longest time to figure out that I must be gentle pulling out after I'm not spinning anymore.

[OIO]

easiest way to get out of a spin is to turn OFF 1 engine so the plane rights itself if its a flat spin.

If its a spiraling spin (your nose goes up and down horizon as your plane spins on its axis) your best off letting go off the stick and lowering throttle to zero, then lowering elevator to the middle position.

The one thing that keeps a 38 spinning is the elevator when under combat trim. Disable combat trim always when flying the 38.

oh, and do NOT use flaps,  those worsen the spin.

[Straiga]

i dunno, didn't seem too complicated to me... opposite aileron (with probably a little rudder) with a little nose down...

If you have to use any aileron in a spin this is the worst thing to do. If buy using aileron in AHII P-38 or to shut the engines down to recover from a spin then the modeling is wrong. Buy using aileron this will aggravaite the problem due to yaw from asymmetric ailerons. I can also name a few other multi-engines in AHII that spin recovery is non existent also.

If anything use differential power add power to the lower wing it adds lift and helps in a spin. But dont use to much or you will spin in the oposit direction.

Read Straiga heres your Multi-engine images in V&A.

After reading this go fly a multi-engine and see if it mimics what you read.

In a stable airplane if you let the controls go the plane will recover by itself, when you have an unstable plane use oposit rudder in the direction of the turn, sometimes push the nose forward or nuetral, power idle, with some altitude. The turn should stop, any airspeed above stall, then a slight nose up elevator, nuetral rudder, and recovery from the spin should be possible. This is generally speaking some planes eat up a lot of altitude and some planes you just dont spin at all.

Any aft CG location in a plane is extreamly hard to recover from a spin, and will stall quicker than a center CG location.

Straiga

[Wolfala]

I've had both the tight spins which were extremely difficult to recover, and the spins with lots of altitude that recovered after 10k. Generally, 1 turn equalled 1,000 feet lost. With the unrecoverable spins, I went idle  - then selected the engine in the direction of the spin, went full throttle with opposite rudder for spin recovery, when rotation stopped, full power on both - 150 and recover.

[Straiga]

then selected the engine in the direction of the spin

Are you shure in the direction of the spin, this will make it worse.

The right engine left spinning turn? The left engine in a right spining turn? NO!

It should be left engine power to counter left turning spin or right engine right power to counter right turning spin.

In a P-38 with counter rotating props that rotate away from the fuselage from the 12 O'clock position, each prop with differential power will yaw the airplane. More power on the Right engine will yaw the plane to the left, more power on the left engine will the yaw the plane to the right, with equal force or leverage.

In a plane that both props rotate to the right from the pilots seat, the right engine will yaw the plane to the left with a greater force.
 The left engine will yaw the plane to the right but with less force or leverage than the right engine.

But in either case the prop wash across the wing with one engine producing power will produce an asymmetric lift on that wing and will roll the plane in the oposit direction. Because of the asymmetric power this will also yaw the plane in the oposit direction, left engine right yaw and right engine left yaw. This is the same for the P-38.

Straiga

[Wolfala]

If you are spinning to the right - you select the right engine since it is going to try and torque you left. Remember, i'm saying for the 38 - not a conventional twin with a critical engine.

[Straiga]

If you are spinning to the right - you select the right engine since it is going to try and torque you left.[/QUOTE
]

If spinning right add power on the right engine this will produce a yaw to the left. The prop wash airflow from that engine will produce lift on that right wing and will roll the plane to the left, because of asymmetric lift.

I was thinking you were saying right turn spin add power into the spin also as saying add left engine power in a right turn. Sorry my bad.

Straiga

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Here is the passage from the Lockheed test pilots logs regarding P-38 spin characteristics and recovery. I have not altered it.

                     Spin Characteristics of the P-38  
 By Lockheed Engineering Test Pilot Herman R. “Fish Salmon

While visiting training bases we are frequently asked about the spin characteristics of the P-38. Such questions as “Have you ever spun a P-38?” and “How do you get a P-38 out of a spin?”, indicate that there is a little confusion about the spin characteristics of the Lightning.
   
               Positive Spin Recovery Procedure  
To begin, during flight test operations, I spin a P-38L 28 times over Muroc Army Air Field under every possible condition,, including a range of CG from 27% forward to 32% aftward, landing gear up and down, with dive flaps extended and not extended, on one engine, and with power on and off.

It doesn’t matter what configuration the Lightning is in when the spin is started, it always develops a steady nose down spin after the 4th turn, (if you allow it to go that far) from which recovery is a cinch.

Because of the 38’s excellent stall characteristics it is unlikely that you will find yourself in an inadvertent spin, but should the unexpected happen, or should you try spinning as an evasive maneuver, here are some solutions we discovered for easy, rapid recovery.

1.   Don’t get excited---even if you are thrown about in the cockpit or find it difficult to orientate yourself with the ground.
2.   Cut back power on both engines, and simultaneously kick full rudders against the spin.
3.   Clean up the airplane by raising dive flaps, maneuvering flaps and landing gear if extended. (The plane will recover with flaps down but we found it takes about one turn longer).
4.   Wait at least one half turn with rudders full against the spin and the elevators back, before moving the control column forward.
5.   As the rate of rotation decreases, move the column forward toward the neutral position. If you have difficulty moving the column forward it indicates your rate of rotation is too fast. Don’t fight the column forward---just wait a little longer, still holding the rudder pedals against the stops.
6.   As the central column approaches neutral, the spin will stop and you will find yourself in a steep nose-down pitch attitude at low airspeed.
7.   When speed increases to about 150mph, perform a gradual pullout. If you pull too sharply, you might stall and spin off in the opposite direction.

  Thus the procedure for spin recovery in the ’38 is basically the same as that learned back in primary flying training. But there is one essential difference---YOU MUST WAIT FOR AT LEAST HALF A TURN AFTER KICKING RUDDERS AGAINST THE SPIN BEFORE MOVING THE CONTROL COLUMN FORWARD. This rule of thumb is absolutely imperative!

[storch]

shut off both engines deploy your landing gear.  this won't help in RL but here in AH it works just fine.

[Straiga]

shut off both engines deploy your landing gear. this won't help in RL but here in AH it works just fine.

How would you like to play a video game like NASCAR and then turn your steering wheel to the left only to have the car move to the right. Driving a real car doesnt do this. This is the same thing as trying to fly a plane like it should fly, but it does something else because the modeling is incorrect. Why cant it be correct to begin with? The multi-engine modeling is incorrect. Especialy when only a single engine is running. So if is incorrect then other flight modeling might be wrong dont you think?

Do you think the Captains lying about a P-38 stall recovery in RL or do we get it modeled correctly to fly like it in RL.

Straiga

[Kweassa]

I don't think Cap's lying. But I don't think the article he came up represents the whole truth either.

 Obviously all aircraf spin. Some much more harsh than other. Some spins could be easier to recover from, and others can be nearly impossible.


 In my opinion, usually the circumstances we put our planes under, is much more harsh than it would ever be for real life pilots and real life planes.

 We make sudden throttle adjustments, harsh stick inputs, pull over 5Gs on a whim, dog fight at speeds under 100mph, go into disorienting rolling scissors everytime, and stall our planes on purpose when in danger. We pull flaps when it was not recommended, lower gear to force overshoot, and drive the plane on WEP settings all the time.

 However, compare the real life guncams and even the most desparate evasives are not more than timely scissors. The "stalls" and "spins" pilots in real life experience are hardly anything that suits the word 'aggravated'. One might strain himself to get a high angle deflection shot, and then bam! he pulled too much and the plane spins. This is usually the "spin" people refer to. They teach pilots how to get out from something like this.

 I'd doubt even the instructors would teach someone to get out from an all-out flat spin with all normal airflow over the plane terminated, and the plane starts falling straight down while spinning on its yaw axis.

 So unless someone has proof that the P-38 will never enter a flat spin... its all a moot point. The P-38s are already very hard to enter stall in the first place. I could pull left turns and right turns and loops with max stick deflection, and the plane would just 'mush' when it enters stall.

 The only time I'd ever enter a flat spin in a AH P-38, is when I do a vertical and my recovery was wrong, and the plane swings nose-down in an irregular fashion... or, if I pull too tight while doing a split-S, and the plane enters an accelerated stall with the nose pitching upwards and 'tumbling down' due to disruption of normal airflow.