Author Topic: Go ahead Russia, no one will blame you  (Read 6660 times)

Offline Nashwan

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Go ahead Russia, no one will blame you
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2005, 02:48:32 PM »
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The events you speak of were in the past.


No, they're still ongoing.

See for example the US state department human rights reports throughout the 90s:

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Domestic and foreign human rights groups documented numerous killings and
serious violations of international humanitarian law and human rights in the
Republic of Chechnya by both Russian military and Chechen separatist forces.  
Violations committed by Russian military forces occurred on a much greater scale
than those of the Chechen separatists.

Russian troops invaded the Republic of Chechnya on December 11, 1994, in order
to prevent Chechnya's effort to secede from the Russian Federation.  The origins
of the conflict are complex.  The immediate roots of this crisis go back to
1991, when Chechnya declared its independence.  But relations between Russia and
the people of Chechnya have long been contentious, dating to the period of
Russian expansion in the Caucasus in the 19th Century.  The indiscriminate and
disproportionate use of force in Chechnya by Russian troops resulted in
thousands to tens of thousands of civilians killed, and some 500,000 people
displaced.

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Russian attacks were responsible for the deaths of thousands to tens of
thousands of civilian residents of Chechnya, and Russian forces were credibly
reported to have summarily executed Chechens.

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Russia continued its brutal military campaign against the secessionist Republic
of Chechnya, which it launched in December 1994.  Russian forces used
indiscriminate and disproportionate force during the destruction of most of
Chechnya's main city, Groznyy, and in attacks on other Chechen towns and
villages.  According to press reports, there were up to 4,000 detonations an
hour at the height of the winter campaign against Groznyy.  After federal forces
captured several major cities and towns in the Chechen Republic, Chechen
fighters employed guerrilla and terrorist tactics against forces of the
Ministries of Defense and Internal Affairs, as well as against Russian civilians
in the town of Budennovsk.

There is no official figure for civilian deaths, but unofficial estimates range
from the thousands to the tens of thousands.  The Government has reported that
2,000 federal soldiers were killed and 6,000 wounded during the military
operation.  

Violations of international humanitarian law and human rights by government
forces included:  the disproportionate and indiscriminate use of military force;
the inhumane treatment of noncombatants; arbitrary detention; beatings; the
torture or summary execution of Chechens at "filtration" (detention) centers,
the largest of which functioned at a meat processing plant near Groznyy; and
harassment and attacks on journalists in the war zone.

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The worst violations of international humanitarian law and human rights were
reportedly committed by the "kontraktniki," nonconscripted Russian citizens paid
by the Russian army.  "Kontraktniki" are accused of being the group most likely
responsible for having committed the civilian massacre at Samashki.  According
to the Russian human rights group Memorial, Russian forces killed 103 civilians
in Samashki in early April in retaliation for the village's support for Chechen
separatists.  The Memorial report indicated that no fewer than 18 persons were
killed in artillery bombardment;  5 were killed as a result of shots fired from
armored vehickles; 6 were shot by Russian snipers; at least 30 were killed
inside their homes, either from gunfire at close range or as a result of
grenades being thrown into homes; at least 2 Samashki residents were reported to
have been executed by Russian officers while in filtration camps; others were
set on fire by Russian forces.  The youngest killed was 15 years old; the oldest
103.  A Duma commission is investigating the massacre, but the commission head
has rejected allegations that a massacre or gross violations of human rights
took place there.


All from the US state department human rights report on Russia, 1995, http://dosfan.lib.uic.edu/ERC/democracy/1995_hrp_report/95hrp_report_eur/Russia.html

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There also were credible reports that the armed forces used indiscriminate force at various times in the Chechen conflict in areas with significant civilian populations, resulting in numerous deaths (see Section 1.g.). They generally conducted such actions with impunity; however, there was at least one conviction; on July 25, a military court convicted Colonel Yuriy Budanov of charges of kidnapping, murder and abuse of authority in the death of an 18-year-old Chechen woman (see Section 1.g.).

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The indiscriminate use of force by government troops in the Chechen conflict has resulted in widespread civilian casualties and the displacement of hundreds of thousands of persons, the majority of whom sought refuge in the neighboring republic of Ingushetiya. President Putin announced in 2001 the successful completion of the active military phase of the struggle against separatism in Chechnya and stated that an anti-terrorist operation under the direction of the FSB would begin immediately. The security situation prevented most foreign observers from traveling to the region, and the Government enforced strict controls on both foreign and domestic media access (see Section 2.a.).

Federal authorities--both military and civilian--have limited journalists' access to war zones since the beginning of the second war in Chechnya in October 1999. Most domestic journalists and editors appeared to exercise self-censorship and avoided subjects embarrassing to the Government with regard to the conflict (see Section 2.a.). Human rights observers also faced limitations in access to the region (see Section 4). These restrictions made independent observation of conditions and verification of reports very difficult and limited the available sources of information concerning the conflict. However, human rights groups with staff in the region continued to release credible reports of human rights abuses and atrocities committed by federal forces during the year. A wide range of reports indicated that federal military operations resulted in numerous civilian casualties and the massive destruction of property and infrastructure, despite claims by federal authorities that government forces utilized precision targeting when combating rebels. There were no reliable estimates of the number of civilians killed as a result of federal military operations; estimates of the totals since 1999 varied from hundreds to thousands. It was also impossible to verify the number of civilians injured by federal forces.

Mopping up or "cleansing" operations known as "zachistki" continued periodically throughout the year, although federal forces shifted tactics toward more targeted operations. Although this change reduced large-scale abuses that often accompanied zachistki, human rights organizations indicated that disappearances of those detained in these raids continued. Human rights activists, including Memorial, reported that federal forces continued to ignore order #80, issued in 2002, which established rules on how to carry out passport checks and mopping-up operations. That order required that the military forces have license plates on their vehicles when entering a village, that military personnel should be accompanied by a representative of the Procuracy and local officials, that they identify themselves when entering a house, and that lists be made and shared with local authorities of all persons arrested during a mopping-up operation. For example, in January, federal forces conducted a sweep in the town of Argun. According to reports, the federal forces dragged residents from their beds and took them to a quarry where they detained and tortured them. Relatives of the detained found two bodies that had been blown up in the quarry. Residents were able to identify one of the bodies as a resident whom federal forces had arrested. Only after mass protests in Argun were most of those detained released. All of them showed signs of physical abuse and required medical attention.


Thopse are from the State department human rights report on Russia, 2003, http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27861.htm

The reports also detail the atrocities committed by Chechen seperatist forces.

Boroda will no doubt claim it's all lies, but that's a pretty accurate reflection of what the Russians have been doing in Chechnya in the last 10 - 15 years.

Offline Pongo

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Go ahead Russia, no one will blame you
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2005, 02:52:46 PM »
Like I said. Dont know what the russians have done.

Offline fd ski

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Go ahead Russia, no one will blame you
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2005, 02:55:52 PM »
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Originally posted by straffo
Read Tolstoļ.


He'll prabably need a movie :)

Offline Raider179

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Go ahead Russia, no one will blame you
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2005, 03:09:16 PM »
hmmm thats all against chechneyans in a warzone. I see nothing similar to going into a schoolhouse while it is in session, seizing hostages, then detonating the place. Lots of those "atrocities"  the russians committed were done in battle and open war zones. Not that that is any excuse but I dont find the similarity. I will concede however that Russia has committed questionable acts in chechneya. But again I see none that equal this schoolhouse attack, or the the theatre situation, or the bombing of those 2 russian planes.

Sorry but I am not gonna show sympathy to the chechneyan's when they shield and protect someone that plans attacks such as these. Previously  I would have held the russians accountable for such acts on the battlefield with deliberate targeted killing of civilians but after reading this guy saying he is gonna do it again I say do whatever you have to to kill this SOB.

Offline Nashwan

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Go ahead Russia, no one will blame you
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2005, 03:23:53 PM »
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Sorry but I am not gonna show sympathy to the chechneyan's when they shield and protect someone that plans attacks such as these.


The problem when you get that attitude is you've entered a circle of atrocities. The Russians justify their actions because of what the Chechen's have done, the Chechen's justify their actions because of what the Russians have done.

Saying it's a war zone, therefore ok, misses the point, I think.

I'm fairly sure the Chechen parents who've lost their children won't simply shrug it off because their children were killed in "a war zone".

There is no justification for atrocities,  and giving "permission" for a new set because of the previous set is only going to perpetuate matters.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Go ahead Russia, no one will blame you
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2005, 03:33:43 PM »
Here is a picture of Grozny, the Chechen capital city after the Russians were through with it in the late 1990s...




Oops, my bad, here's the one I was looking for...


« Last Edit: February 03, 2005, 03:39:30 PM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline Raider179

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« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2005, 03:43:04 PM »
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Originally posted by Nashwan
The problem when you get that attitude is you've entered a circle of atrocities. The Russians justify their actions because of what the Chechen's have done, the Chechen's justify their actions because of what the Russians have done.

Saying it's a war zone, therefore ok, misses the point, I think.

I'm fairly sure the Chechen parents who've lost their children won't simply shrug it off because their children were killed in "a war zone".

There is no justification for atrocities,  and giving "permission" for a new set because of the previous set is only going to perpetuate matters.


never said ok I said "Not that that is any excuse "

I agree with you on circle of atrocities all you gotta do is look at isreal/palestine. But I still think it is a seperate thing when you go into a school and do this then if someone lobs artillery at militants  and it hits your house.

Offline Yeager

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Go ahead Russia, no one will blame you
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2005, 03:51:02 PM »
There is no justification for atrocities, and giving "permission" for a new set because of the previous set is only going to perpetuate matters.
===
this is why war should not be pursued unless it is going to be completed.  One side will need to lose.  Unfortunately war is an atrocity so once you have commited your forces you might as well get it over with.
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline Muckmaw1

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Go ahead Russia, no one will blame you
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2005, 12:56:19 PM »
"Also Friday, prosecutors in southern Russia said the attackers who were killed in the Beslan school seizure have been buried at an undisclosed location and, in accordance with Russian law, without notification of their relatives. "


Too Bad....

I'd like the opportunity to spit on them

Offline Muckmaw1

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Go ahead Russia, no one will blame you
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2005, 12:59:13 PM »
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Here is a picture of Grozny, the Chechen capital city after the Russians were through with it in the late 1990s...




Oops, my bad, here's the one I was looking for...




Got any pictures of Falluja?

Offline rshubert

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Go ahead Russia, no one will blame you
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2005, 01:14:03 PM »
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Originally posted by Pongo
anyone that would give russians free reign to do what ever they want doenst know much about what russians have done.


Stalin was Georgian.

Offline Boroda

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Go ahead Russia, no one will blame you
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2005, 01:51:36 PM »
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Here is a picture of Grozny, the Chechen capital city after the Russians were through with it in the late 1990s...


GH, may I ask you a question, please? Please, don't get offended...

Are you an idiot?

You said you know some secret Croatian way to overtake a city turned into a fortress?

I am happy that in 2000 Russian Army simply bombed down the bastards, instead of sending soldiers against fortifications.

I still insist that in Chechen war zone there must be used more BM-21 rockets then AK-74 bullets.

Offline Wolfala

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Go ahead Russia, no one will blame you
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2005, 02:55:46 PM »
After Faluja - i'm all about thermobaric 210mm rounds.


the best cure for "wife ack" is to deploy chaff:    $...$$....$....$$$.....$ .....$$$.....$ ....$$

Offline lasersailor184

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Go ahead Russia, no one will blame you
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2005, 03:10:28 PM »
Here's how I see it.  

I never have had a problem with how the Russians deal with the Chechyans.

But I expect the Russians to not have a problem with how the Israeli's deal with the Palestinians or how we deal with the Insurgents.
Punishr - N.D.M. Back in the air.
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Offline lada

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Go ahead Russia, no one will blame you
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2005, 03:11:29 PM »
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Originally posted by Stang
Ya know, if the Chechens weren't using such horrible ways of trying to gain thier independence, the whole world would be with them.  Blowing up defenseless kids to make a point... wtf.  I have zero sympathy for what happens to the militant Chechens now.


well i agree .. did you ever see what are russian troops doing in Checna ?

May be you could have small problem to decide, who should be "******ed"


Plenty of Checnian here... plenty of our medical stuff worked overthere.
Russian army are not peace keeprs, not saint angles sent by god, nor sheep. Plenty of same pigs (as were in beslan) among them doing similary things in Checna.

But if you wish to go and fight in Checna, i wish you good luck.