Author Topic: Go ahead Russia, no one will blame you (Read 6661 times)

JB88 · « **Reply #45 on:** February 05, 2005, 11:34:56 AM »

didnt kruschev get pretty much wiped off the history books too?

Boroda · « **Reply #46 on:** February 05, 2005, 11:36:19 AM »

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Originally posted by JB88
wasnt stalin virtually erased from the history books over there at some point?

i find it odd to be reading a defense of the man, if not wholly unsettling.

I am against "erasing" anything from history.

Stalin was a tremendous chatacter. A tyrant, but a creator of all we posess now. A person that is above almost any judgement.

Avoiding labels and stereotypes.

I find it amazing that modern liberastic "intelligetsia" screams against a monument to Big Three in Moscow, because "there should be no monuments to Stalin". Imagine that photo from Yalta with FDR and sir Winston w/o JVS.

Holden McGroin · « **Reply #47 on:** February 05, 2005, 11:40:51 AM »

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Originally posted by Boroda
Stalin was a tremendous chatacter. A tyrant, but a creator of all we posess now. A person that is above almost any judgement.

However with the examples of the purges and the Ukraine famine of the 1930's, he believed in a rather draconian scorched earth policy before he built anything.

Boroda · « **Reply #48 on:** February 05, 2005, 11:41:13 AM »

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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Kruschev denounced Stalin at a Party Congress in ... like 1954.

Just a few years after Stalin's death anyway. Kind of shocked the system.

1956. XX Party congress.

All monuments and other stuff mentioning Stalin was removed in one night, May 1st 1960 IIRC.

It is funny. Like a Stalin's quote carved in marble on one of the subway stations, and a shallow hole where the signature was.

Breaking the "cult of personality" was IMHO nessessary. But an attempt to "wipe out" was pretty stupid. Like renaming Stalingrad to Volgograd. Even renaming ot back to Tsaritryn (the city of Empress) was not enough for them, because Stalin took part in Tsatitsyn battle in Civil War...

JB88 · « **Reply #49 on:** February 05, 2005, 11:45:09 AM »

sounds like a whole lotta fun.

Boroda · « **Reply #50 on:** February 05, 2005, 11:46:48 AM »

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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
However with the examples of the purges and the Ukraine famine of the 1930's, he believed in a rather draconian scorched earth policy before he built anything.

under Stalin starvation ended. Last "hunger" happened in 1947. In Russian Empire bad harvests resulted in mass starvation every 5-10 years. And don't tell me about Ukrainian "famine". My family is from that places.

Does anyone remember how many people died at the same time in Volga region? "Famine" is a slogan for Ukrainian nationalists.

"If we'll not build up in 10 years - we'll be crushed". And he was damn right. From a country where industrial workers we no more then 1% of population, where literacy was even more rare - he created a Soviet Empire that could compete with US for 50 years after his death...

Holden McGroin · « **Reply #51 on:** February 05, 2005, 12:08:05 PM »

I do support the present government's efforts in Chechnya. Putin has a blank check as far as I am concerned. Those who machine gun school children do not deserve independance, they deserve death.

But regarding Stalin.

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Originally posted by Boroda
he created a Soviet Empire that could compete with US for 50 years after his death...

Militarily, yes.

Economically no.

When the Soviet Union finally collapsed, it's economic power was on par with the Dutch.

The Dutch... with a population of 15 million.

So because there was only mass starvation in the 30's and late 40's you must consider Stalin's policies to be successful. And the purges were okay.

You don't have to agree with me, but it's quicker.

Boroda · « **Reply #52 on:** February 05, 2005, 12:14:11 PM »

Military part was nessessary to survive, I think it's hard to doubt.

Economically? The whole country was rebuilt after 1945 in 10 years.

Later irresponsible politicians like that bastard Gorbachev destroyed the country. And the burden of cold war was too heavy to any existing nation. Over 50% of economics was working for defence.

It's sad, but now we live on what was built or planned before 1953

Stalinism = resposibility according to authority. The regime we need badly now.

Back to the topic: Stalin invented the most humanistic solution for Chechens. Russian Imperial Army fought them for 50 years, and developed a much more cruel but effective method. The problem is that they understand humanism and good will as weakness. They are literally prehistoric savages. There are no words in Chechen language for numbers, they use Russian numerals. Chechen talk is like "Arararararara boots ararararara two tractors arararara automat".

lada · « **Reply #53 on:** February 05, 2005, 12:17:06 PM »

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Originally posted by JB88
didnt kruschev get pretty much wiped off the history books too?

neg. we had him in the school

mechanic · « **Reply #54 on:** February 05, 2005, 12:43:29 PM »

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Originally posted by Pongo
anyone that would give russians free reign to do what ever they want doenst know much about what russians have done.

HAHAH that is kind of a joke considering other things from history.

The native Americans??

The Slave Trade??

The British Empire??

Nazi Germany??

should we hold a grudge against Italy for the death of Christ?

Every Russian i have met has been polite, educated, kind, generous, GREAT FUN to drink with, and most importantly, totaly forgiving of the conflicts between all our great countries from the past.

America has done some pretty nasty things in the past too, i advise you get over this anti-Russian vibe bro it aint helpfull considering the efforts all great nations have made for peace these last few decades....

the chechens?? fair enough they want their independance, but the should pay a heavy price for the last 15 odd years of bloodshed.

you would think the same if it was an american school.

Nashwan · « **Reply #55 on:** February 05, 2005, 01:16:57 PM »

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I never have had a problem with how the Russians deal with the Chechyans.

But I expect the Russians to not have a problem with how the Israeli's deal with the Palestinians

The problem is, such methods aren't effective.

Israel is often touted as having the best anti-terrorist methods and forces, but when you look at the record, it's not particulary impressive.

Israel has been fighting their war against terrorism for 50 years. Each of the last 4 years have been the worst since at least 1950.

If you're still fighting after 50 years, and suffering more casualties than ever, I don't think the policies can be described as successfull.

Russia has been fighting in Chechnya for the last 14 years, again the conflict is becoming more extreme. Such methods aren't working, and never do in the long term.

Boroda · « **Reply #56 on:** February 05, 2005, 01:22:30 PM »

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Originally posted by Nashwan
Russia has been fighting in Chechnya for the last 14 years, again the conflict is becoming more extreme. Such methods aren't working, and never do in the long term.

10 years last December.

Until our brass-hats understood that it is WAR and stopped pretending to be "civilized Europeans" - the situation got more or less under control.

Everyone knows about school in Beslan. Noone understands that before 1999 there were not only 300 kids killed, but 300,000. All non-native population suffered from bloody gangsters.

Russian Empire fought for 50 years to teach them to behave.

Raider179 · « **Reply #57 on:** February 05, 2005, 02:57:23 PM »

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Originally posted by mechanic
HAHAH that is kind of a joke considering other things from history.

The native Americans??

The Slave Trade??

The British Empire??

Nazi Germany??

should we hold a grudge against Italy for the death of Christ?

Every Russian i have met has been polite, educated, kind, generous, GREAT FUN to drink with, and most importantly, totaly forgiving of the conflicts between all our great countries from the past.

America has done some pretty nasty things in the past too, i advise you get over this anti-Russian vibe bro it aint helpfull considering the efforts all great nations have made for peace these last few decades....

.

Man very well said mechanic

Siaf__csf · « **Reply #58 on:** February 05, 2005, 03:46:32 PM »

History is for studying, learning and remembering.

We should never forget who russians are and where they come from. I will never trust them.

Having said that, I have a couple quite close russian friends of whom I obviously have nothing bad to say about.. But the nation..

Such big problems, gigantic economical and ecological disaster, high crime and corruption.. You figure it out.

SaburoS · « **Reply #59 on:** February 05, 2005, 04:01:47 PM »

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Originally posted by Elfie
I sure hope you Russians get that 'tard before he pulls another Beslan.

Otoh I dont understand why the Russians are back in Chechyna. Whats so bad about letting those people rule themselves?

Economics.
The Russians can't afford to let Chechyna go. Big oil reserves if memory serves me.

Same reason (economics, not oil) the Union couldn't let the Confederacy leave.