Author Topic: Tip #1 for flying the P-51 (Read 839 times)

SunTracker · « **on:** February 04, 2005, 11:14:39 AM »

If you find yourself in a P-51 turn fighting a better turning plane, dont try to pursue your target in the horizontal plane. Estimate where the bandit will be if he continues turning, and pull your mustang into the vertical plane. While going vertical, roll your aircraft to so that you intercept him on your nose as you come back down past the horizontal plane.

If thats confusing (and I know it probably sounds so), picture this. A plane is flying around the equator of the earth. Instead of pursuing him around the equator, fly over the north pole to intercept him on the other side.

JB73 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 04, 2005, 11:19:44 AM »

a high yo-yo (what you are describing) can be countered easily by a knowledgable pilot unfortunatly.

if you are after a 109, he will climb right over your yo-yo

don't get me wrong, MANY dont even know to do this, and it is a good starting point for someone new. teaching them to not just follow the enemy is good.

megadud · « **Reply #2 on:** February 04, 2005, 11:52:12 AM »

where did thisa post come from?

i thought the tip would be to shoot the other plane down...

and this goes fgor any plane not just pony...

megadud

DoctorYO · « **Reply #3 on:** February 04, 2005, 01:04:06 PM »

While the 109 has a few tricks up its sleeve in this scenario given equal pilot skill the mustang can yo yo with no problem with the 109 until energy states get to sub 225 speed range..

If I had advantage and a 109 was turning and i high YoYoed him the proper way is to keep eyes on target.. if he pulls a hard climb or yoyo himself the counter is to blow thru the 109's radii (either vertical horizontal or both) and 2g immel.....

in order for the 109's evasive to be effective he must do it at high g.. if not the p51 can out flap turn em (most likely can in the first place anyway but even more so when saddled up for snapshot..)

by using the high g evasive the 109 will bleed.. the mustang can take advantage of this and 2 g zoom and at bare minimal stalemate the 109 manuever and normally bag the 109 by using roll to come down right on top of the 109's head.. With throttle management the p51 using flaps and superior e can out turn a 109 in that scenario.....

says who you say?

says me.... i fly both 51 and 109 and im saying thats what would happen given equal pilot skill levels...

so dont post this rubbish like the 109 is superplane its not.. p51 is more than a match for it in its element while the 109 is very good if the roles would be reversed with the 109 bouncing the p51... both planes are late war and very strong in the right hands...

DoctorYo

JB73 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 04, 2005, 01:12:21 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by DoctorYO
so dont post this rubbish like the 109 is superplane its not.. p51 is more than a match for it in its element while the 109 is very good if the roles would be reversed with the 109 bouncing the p51... both planes are late war and very strong in the right hands...

DoctorYo

not posting rubbish OR the the 109 is a "superplane"

heck i dont even like flying it. i fly 190's dora to be specific.

all im saying is if a skilled pilot is doing only a flat turn for an evasive, he is doing it for a reason, possibly to bait the persuer to go into a high yo-yo

if that is the case, then the persuer might want to think about more than a simple "over the top" manuever to get a shot. i used the 109 as an example of a strong climber, who could take the fight vertical very quickly.

in a vertical fight a 109 (or la7 or any other 4000fpm+ climber) holds the advantage over an energy / speed fighter.

dedalos · « **Reply #5 on:** February 04, 2005, 01:18:34 PM »

I confused

Doesn't the 51 turn better tha a 109? Real question. I really don;t know

DoctorYO · « **Reply #6 on:** February 04, 2005, 02:50:43 PM »

Quote

all im saying is if a skilled pilot is doing only a flat turn for an evasive, he is doing it for a reason, possibly to bait the persuer to go into a high yo-yo

while im not saying someone in this game would not do this.. but any experienced (you said skilled and your and my defenition may be light years apart..) pilot would never allow the enemy to high yoyo them as some sort of bait... especially using a flat turn.. (verticle scissors or 2-3g reversal but flat turn... ah no....)

A high yo yo is dangerous for the defender because it allows lag pursuit in the beginning and lead pursuit in the end aka a gun solution.. (at aggressors pilots discretion may go lag pursuit to further get ready for the saddle and gun solution. rinse high yoyo and repeat..)

One throttle chop and flaps deployed the person who does the high yoyo is now 200 dead 6 with tracking solution... i wouldn't risk toying with anyone in that situation. Too many competent pilots that will seize the oppontunity.

if your doing a flat turn trying to bait people, to each their own better you than me.... I wish you luck...

I wouldn't recomend it hence i called it rubbish in the first post.. hopefully no offense is taken. IMO only....

DoctorYo

PS: Dedalos I give the mustang slight advantage in turning under 225 vs the g10.. the F4 will out turn the mustang.. and the mustang seems to have superior turn at all high speeds over 250 mph... now the 109 has some tricks (the rudder can be used for lag induced rolls or a improvised brake hence lowering speed and turn radii.. Yeah the mustang is technically out turning the 109 but not out radii ' ing it... so there are many variables to this question speed rudders angle of attack.number of enemy.. alt.. get the picture... straight up though i give the mustang superior turning all around.. (in ah1 i'd say the 109 is better all around..)with the 109 (depending on which model) better turning in the slow 225mph or less with exception of the 109g10 which still turns like a truck but has some verticle and spiral climb advantages.. I dont care what stealth patches HTC says don't exist.. the 109s fly way better now.. and are not as mushed and the flounder mobiles they were before the latest patches...

dedalos · « **Reply #7 on:** February 04, 2005, 02:59:12 PM »

So, if I understand this right, the first question before any other questions/answers should be:"how fast are you going and what planes are involved"

JB73 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 04, 2005, 03:35:59 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by dedalos
So, if I understand this right, the first question before any other questions/answers should be:"how fast are you going and what planes are involved"

as far a s SA goes, i would say so.

for me it is the defining choice if i enter the engagement or not

DoctorYO · « **Reply #9 on:** February 04, 2005, 03:42:28 PM »

Dedalos, absolutely... I define turn ability as actual turn and turn radii..

the turn, is regulated by the aircraft at different speeds.. (exp. mustang with its flaps deployable at just under 400 is a huge advantage over aircraft that dont have that ability....) as where a p38 has the ability to pop full flaps at about 100mph and less and have a stable turn and a very good turn radii at that speed..

Turn Radii is non varible on plane type with exception to accel and decel of the aircraft.. (just think of it being static for this explanation {actually more static would be correct}this is my opinion take it for what you think my credibility on this subject.....

alot of people think speed is always good fast.. and thats a valid point but imo speed is a double edged sword it can be used both ways for maximum effect.. some times slow is good.. or e bleed is good.. Take the typhoon for example its e bleed under high g is one the best in the game.. that translates to a transitional period for it to out radii its prey and snap shot it even though it seemed it came in with ludacris speed and was going to over shoot.. this is even more so with throttle management.... (note all planes benefit from throttle management even the zeke so if you not chopping when needed your behind the power curve in a knife fight....)

The mustang is best used fast.. but it has those unique manuever flaps at high speed that allow it to really do a number on alot of aircraft above say 250-225mph.. below that its turn is mediocre but its transitional period (for a snapshot) is above average to good due to its full array of flap settings....

the problem with the stang is once you burn the e you have a hard time getting it back unless you had some dive room to spare.. (in fact all acceleration in the 51 i suggest a .5k - 1 k dive to help its accel.. it dives better than its basic accel even against other aircraft doing the same thing (note the big heavy dora, p38 jug etc.. will get more benifit from the shallow dive but spits lala's 109's dont dive as well as the p51.. so keep that in mind when piloting the mustang)

The 109 in similiar situation has the ability to equalize e state alot easier due to its light airframe and powerful engines.. (note all 109's accel very good under wep....) (hence tactics on the experienced level will slow the fight down into a radii contest, 0 g accel and high yoyo and repeat the radii stuff again.. this is where the 109s are very strong... fast then slow slow then fast... the extra wep can wear down enemies if your paitent and dont mind your KOT to go into the gutter... (and note this isn't the immel to death tactics you see many do in the main.. this is one immel, one or two yoyo's then a saddle then a kill... thats efighting.. where most think e fighting is immel then b&z then immel rinse repeat.. some call it bore and zoom and i concur..)

Sorry to drag the explanation out but this is a detailed subject; turn ability is a tough topic due to amount of varible involved..

DoctorYo

dedalos · « **Reply #10 on:** February 04, 2005, 03:59:14 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by JB73
as far a s SA goes, i would say so.

for me it is the defining choice if i enter the engagement or not

No, I mean before you follow someone in a turn or do what ever else I do before I miss and get killed

Gixer · « **Reply #11 on:** February 04, 2005, 04:03:49 PM »

All these chats about ACM are all very nice but 9 /10 the horde shows up and Pony does the real tip #1 Run.

1v1 or 1v2 ACM is one thing, unfortunetly it's a pretty rare beast to come across in the MA.

~~...-Gixer~~

streetstang · « **Reply #12 on:** February 04, 2005, 04:13:08 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Gixer
All these chats about ACM are all very nice but 9 /10 the horde shows up and Pony does the real tip #1 Run.

1v1 or 1v2 ACM is one thing, unfortunetly it's a pretty rare beast to come across in the MA.

~~...-Gixer~~

Yup. Had 3 rooks over a base the other day. A 190, a 51 and a 38 on a little vulch mission. But sadly for them, my ack came up and they wouldnt come back in it to vulch anymore. So they'd sit around waiting for someone to up and come out and play. So I rolled a spitv and got the 190 and 38 but died from a pilot wound. I rolled an La7 but by then the 51 was running. I only took 50-% fuel so I had to auger to up again. I rolled from a base I thought I'd be able to intercept the pony at.

I headed right for his base, or the base I thought he was going to rtb to. Saw a dot trying to land way out. I was otd screaming in. I met him just as he got wheels down otr. Click... bang...boom. No vulchie vulchie landing for him.

Moral of the story... There isn't one. Cept for all fiftyjuans run. 99% do anyways.

JB73 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 04, 2005, 06:22:30 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by dedalos
No, I mean before you follow someone in a turn or do what ever else I do before I miss and get killed

yes also...

always know what you are fighting, what it can do better than your plane, and what your planes can do better.

i personally take that into account every fight.
let's say im in my dora and a p51 gors into a break turn to avoid my shot. let's say i have alot more E, say going 350+ and the pony is maybe 220.

right away i know he will turn inside me and get behind me before i finish a 180 turn so i zoom straight up into a spiral climb i know he can not follow. reset then re-engage

Cobra412 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 04, 2005, 07:31:29 PM »

Gixer so you would expect a Mustang to turn and fight even if the numbers are 3 to 1 or 4 to 1? What you fail to mention is what planes are around in these so called running mustang engagements. Seems if they are extending or running when there is a 3 to 1 or higher it's for a reason.

I'll be damned if I turn to engage a group of 3 or more against me if I know it's not only a numbers advantage that I'm going against. It depends on the planes your flying against as to whether or not you have a chance in a 3 on 1 or higher. Certain combinations of enemy aircraft coupled with the current alt and energy situation will determine if turning to fight is a wise decision.

A 1 on 1 or 2 on 1 is one thing but just because folks only know how to fly with a horde doesn't mean those single contacts should turn just to please the horde. If it requires you to fly with more than 1 wingman against a single con you might as well stick to gvs or the massive furballs. People such as yourself see the situation from your advantageous perspective and not the other way around. Those who are at the disadvantage actually weigh the pros and cons prior to engaging in such situation. You see one plane and one dimension to the engagement. The single contact sees multiple planes and multiple dimensions to the engagement.

A typical scenario seen in the MA would be an LA7 and a Spit Mk V or Mk IX against a lone co alt and maybe co e Mustang. The LA7 is almost guaranteed to catch the extending Mustang. Meanwhile the Spit Mk V or Mk IX will stay close enough to become a threat the second the LA7 engages the Mustang. It's basically a game of one wolf running his prey to a pack of wolves. Considering the LA7 has not only an energy advantage but also a turning and weapons advantage the Mustang is already at a disadvantage. The LA7 driver will determine how the fight goes right from the start. Since he/she has the option to do as he/she pleases from the start the Mustang driver has to look at hoping to get a kill with in the first turn or 2nd or 3rd bnz pass from the LA7.

y that time the Spitfire would have made up the ground lost from the extending Mustang and now there is an immediate dual threat (2 better turners, 2 better weapons packages, and one speed advantage). The fight now depends on if the Mustang driver can force a quick mistake by either cons to somewhat even the playing field. If the LA7 and Spit drivers use their planes best qualities then it's purely a hope to survive situation for the Mustang. These kind of engagements happen every night it's just a matter of the plane combos and numbers that might differ from time to time against a solo mustang pilot. I've got probably 200 films that would show these types of engagements. I could also post many films that show the 3 and 4+ on 1 mustang. It's nice to see folks with the blinders on.