Author Topic: Lost Art of Combat  (Read 2847 times)

Offline Zanth

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Lost Art of Combat
« on: February 06, 2005, 12:21:20 AM »
Once upon a time there was a group of losers with time on thier hands that had computers and liked to fight and die in the virtual air.  In those days people asked "are you ok down there?"  or "do you need help?"  yeah people who violated the fight were spit upon and called newbe dweeb and cast into the outer darkness of Nintendo.

This is not  as it is now, no way no how.   This isn't a Hitech problem this is a community problem.   In this Power Ranger age we live in it is ok to take 5 guys to kill one.  It is ok to shoot thru your buddy to get a kill.  This is a different age.

Like I said this is not a Hitech problem.  I am just an aging Air Warrior missing the old days.   But it is sad that we can't pass on the "old ways".   There was a time when this was different.  I am probably just getting too old and beat up for computer games - but I will always remeber Fighter Town in Air Warrior.

There is no fix this is just a whine..... ah I feel better now.

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2005, 12:25:51 AM »
Ok?  

Hell, it is encouraged.

And it isn't the "airwarrior" days gone by... only game I ever played was AH, and for the first year or so it was a superb game.  Since then, the population has gone up, and the skill level has decreased exponentially.  Think it is actually past the point of no return.

Offline Flyboy

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« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2005, 12:38:39 AM »
its not lost (yet) it just become extremely rare.
there are still sparks if you look closely.

have faith :)

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2005, 01:17:11 AM »
Like the opinion I stated when you were mentioning this online, those are all old times which have gone away, and it's something that will never come back. I'm not trying to criticize you, I'm just stating what has happened to AH and why.

 AH isn't the "Pleasantville" it used be years ago. Maximum population of 100 people or so, everybody knew everybody, and everyone else was your friend.

 Back then, the three-country "War" wasn't anything much than just a little spice to add flavor to the Free-For-All fights. Pure FFA gets dull quick, and in terms of gameplay its basically the same thing as playing boxed games in MP arenas. So, a small virtual war aspect was added into the game.

 It was just a simple "guidline" and a loose objective for everyone, which was useful for creating variety of nifty situations.

 ...

 Now, the MA's a bustling Metropolis.
 
 500~600 people in prime time. About 80% of my own "countrymen" I don't know who they are. 90% of the entire MA I don't know these guys.

 All of the squads which were famed when I logged on, are now much smaller in numbers. The influence of a single skilled veteran in a sector is negligible at best. And massive flights of "amateuers" dominates the skies.

 The wholesome "Pleasantville" broke up into three parts, complete with its virtual-reality version of Nationalistic mentalities, and is duking out a harsh, hectic war everyday in the MA.

 The main concept of air combat, in truth, is now more closer than ever to that resembling a "real war". What matters is not how you fight the enemy, but how effective you can fight him. Maximal use of force is advised. How many people your side is able to muster, will depend the outcome of the war.

 The MAsfolk now fly for a different purpose. They do fly for fun - except, their "fun" is not in aircombat itself, but achieving the collective objective of suppressing enemys, capturing fields, and winning the war.

 Things just progress. One must do what he can do either adapt, or be left out.

......

 There's a bad side and good side in everything, and same with the MA.

 For instance, I try to find my own fun in how I can help out. I don't like joining the horde, so I usually fly against enemy hordes. I try to give my countrymen a nudge on their shoulder to come defend fields. Organizing a defensive can be lots of fun when you can see the real effects of it.

 Also, the new MA means that it is constantly a challenge to ever get a single kill. In the old days I could have all the time I wanted, but now, I only have a split-second before some other bad guy joins the fight to ruin it for me. So I try to keep conscious of what's going around for myself and others. Fighting in multiple numbers and large masses does have essence of fun in its own - especially when the odds are against you.

 On a less personal side, bigger and more concentrated fights also give out better opportunities of massive collective battles of a grand scale.

 The most fun aspect of the MA I enjoy is tank-busting. Seeing from the air our own tanks engaging enemy tanks, and flying in their midst and targetting out enemy tanks and opening up 40mm cannons - that's a thrill I don't want to miss. You couldn't have seen something like this in the old days, since the ground warfare was never really important, or an effective means of field capture.

 
 ...

 IMO, the largest problem in the MA is that while the "total war" aspect has arrived, but all the basic organizational aspect of a "total war" needed to make it actually fun, rather than become a dull and bland, is left out. AH has come a long way since its beta days, but the basic strat remains almost unchanged.

 The simplistic strat aspect of it all was good enough to simulate a small-scale war in the old days, but it is not enough now.

 Many stuff, such as logistics for instance, are not in the game. Basic command structures, organizations, flight/mission planning and etc etc. are all missing from the game. The "system", which its role should continuously become more and more important in influencing the game to work smoother, is basically non-intervening.

 So what happens is people can mass up and throw anything they have in their disposal, in a chaotic manner, to create a bizarre surrounding in the MA - where people fly around with the mentality of real soldiers in a war, but none of what they do resembles anything to real soldiers.

 They run away in face of equal challenge, and rely on others to do the job for them. Abandon friendlies, ignore help calls, desert fields in need of defense, etc etc..

 In such an environment where everyone is free to do what he chooses, naturally, they all do the thing which ensures their chance of survival to the max - fly in hordes.

 ....


 The thing that is certain, is that the old days are not gonna come back. However, that doesn't mean that these new days have to be miserable. All we can do, is discuss new aspects and methods on how to restructure the MA into something that makes more sense, and people following that sense, can have some more fun, without leaving out anyone who doesn't like being a part of a horde.

 Basically, this, is not a community thing, It's a system thing.

Offline Redd

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Lost Art of Combat
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2005, 01:31:28 AM »
I fly in a few of the time zones on different occasions with way different arena numbers

Seems to me a good number in the MA is around 150-250.   400 + the furballs can be fun sometimes , but it's basically horde warrior.


Late Euro/PAC/Early US  time is interesting , much smaller numbers 80-170 usually,  a regular group of more experienced players . Some very good pilots from places like Japan, Korea and Europe (as well as the early morning crew from the US ). Can be slow sometimes in terms of fights per hour , but some really good fights can be found also.

The radio chatter tends to be more friendly banter than smack talk

I think that time is probably more representative of how AH played in the early days.
I come from a land downunder

Offline mechanic

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« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2005, 07:12:44 AM »
and alot of that crew has more than enough skill to provide challenging fights. ;)
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.

Offline bozon

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« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2005, 07:17:26 AM »
Redd has it right.

a ~200 players MA with small maps are the best. Much more like AH 3 years ago.

With the low number of people, each one counts for more. You get to fight several sorties with the same countrymen vs. the same enemy pilots - then they are not strangers anymore.

I'm currently out of the game due to lack of computing power, so my views don't really count, but the several areanas suggestions (like early-mid-late areanas) start to sound appealing.

This obviously not going to happen as HTC is working hard on TOD and probably will not experiment with their main business as well.

Bozon
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the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
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Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2005, 08:01:51 AM »
Some of the frustrations inherent in the game, as it now is, really piled up on me yesterday.

While I've been flying, off and on, for about two years, I am in many ways still a newb.  Specifically, I've still got a lot of ACM to learn.     The only way to learn it is through one-on-one combat with a veteran.

The main arena is the wrong environment for that.  While I, and some others, want to learn the tricks of the aces in there, it's just not possible.  I can't tell you how many times I attempted to set up a one-on-one fight yesterday, only to find six or seven of my opponent's countrymen busting their nurts trying to gang my six.

With that many back there, no amount of ACM will save you.  There are enough of them to counter any move.

I'm a pretty decent, good-natured guy, with a wife, two sons, a host of friends, and two dogs that love me.  

But yesterday, the frustrations turned me into an arse.  I started spouting off on channel 200.  While this isn't the first time I've done it, this was definitely the worst occasion.

The big maps help spread out the horde a bit, and that helps.  The small maps, with these types of numbers, are almost hopeless for the type of flying I crave.

Yeah, yeah!  I know.  Take it to the dueling arena.  But my time is limited and the main arena is addictive.      Guess I'll just have to make the time somehow.

My pologies to anyone I offended Saturday.

Offline BUG_EAF322

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Lost Art of Combat
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2005, 08:06:53 AM »
There is nothin more permanent as change.

Right now is the good old days for a new generation.

They will complain someday about it.

As everything new u get used to it.

Between ur ears u have to stay young otherwise u will fall behind.

I really get pissed my self when i get gangbanged by cherry pickin 4x20mm birds wich just need a few pings to kill u.

But it my fault to choose a plane in wich u have to shoot the crap out of it..

I'm also flying mostly alone and i depend on noone just because thats mostly dissapointing.

my fault i should depend on myself.

There are many different ways to fly a style in the MA  Its a skill to adjust in time I myself keeps a bit stuck on the lonewolf style.

my fault again.

im getting nowhere

stop

:)

Offline Scaevola

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« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2005, 08:08:41 AM »
I have only been playing AH for about 6 months now but right from the start I always asked if someone was ok when they were engaged before jumping into a fight and then usually hung around a little higher than the fight in case another bad guy turned up. I thought that this was just common courtesy. Even though I still abide by the above I find that it's a rare occasion that the same courtesy is returned.

I have noticed just in the 6 months I have been playing what I perceive as a change in attitude to the gameplay in the MA. All you seem to get now is the problem you have mentioned and others such as not even trying to perform any ACM and just go for the HO, this is not limited to just newbs.

 I've run into two guys (both ranked in the 50,s) the first guy I've met 4 times, each time he's been in a 109,Nik and 190, 3 times he HO's and the 3rd he vulches (not bothered about the vulch).  The second guy was in a Panzer which I killed, 5 mins later he's back in a Tiger, I shot his tracks out, then got his turret , this guy then towers out and I get the kill. Now does this guy get in another GV to try again? No he ups a set of B24's and comes back and starts divebombing me. After he near enough drops his whole load on me he get's the kill. I don't really care if Jimmie stewart dive bombed buffs in WWII I find the practice contemptable in AH and a lame skilless girlie tactic . (starts frothing at the mouth)

If this is an example that the higher ranks are setting then it's not a wonder that these habits rub off on people just joining.

As stated I don't think the MA is going to have a sudden change and go back to "the good old days" and it's not our $15.00 so you have to put up with it.

Offline mechanic

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Lost Art of Combat
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2005, 08:19:55 AM »
think possitive guys, it aint as bad as you think.
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.

Offline oboe

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« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2005, 08:34:15 AM »
When I read posts like this, where guys talk about how great the fights and community attitude were back in the good ol' days - I wish more people knew about how great the Combat Theater is on a good night.    It's been dead lately, but I swear, get 30-50 people (and make sure Oldman is one of them) in there with well- matched planeset it is everything you guys describe that you miss about the old days.

There was another post recently about squad challenges in the dueling arena.    Squad ops are fun in the CT too - in fact with the low icon settings sometimes it really pays to have squadmates calling out the bogeys.    Anyway maybe the CT would be a good place for squad challenges, and that might help with getting a 'seed' population in there on a given night.  'course it woudl be a problem if both squads have a 'chosen' ride that is not available in the CT that week.

Offline FiLtH

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Lost Art of Combat
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2005, 09:45:47 AM »
I loved AW as much as anyone. The one on one stuff at Fightertown, everything. But this isnt AW. In AW without the HO option you really had to work at gaining the guy's 6 to get a shot.

  In here a bullet can come from any direction. Personally I know Ive let my 1 on 1 way of playing slip, and have become a different type of player than I was in AW. Ya maybe the people are different too.

  Young guys trying to act too old, old guys acting too young. Times change though. So Im changing with them. Whats the alternative? Hang up the joystick and whittle on the porch?

~AoM~

Offline TequilaChaser

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Lost Art of Combat
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2005, 10:18:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by FiLtH
Whats the alternative? Hang up the joystick and whittle on the porch?



Salt Water Fishing, Golf, Texas Hold em, Sex, Tequila nights,  to name a few ;)

( wait them choices are for those old enough or not to old :D )


but once a pretend combat sim flyer always a combat sim flyer, even if you do change your way of game play, that urge of old will always be there...............
« Last Edit: February 06, 2005, 10:22:49 AM by TequilaChaser »
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline ROC

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« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2005, 10:39:11 AM »
Land grabbin, alt monkeyin, vulchin no team work.  All very familiar complaints.

All very old as well, been hearing them for 8 years or more.

AW moved to AW2and 3 and had to keep the "classic" map up because some just wouldn't leave.  There is always change and those who refuse to change with it.

That's not a bad thing, as it provides history and an anchor to the best of the past, but in all honesty the past wasn't perfect.  There was just as much complaining about these exact problems back then.  We, alot of us, miss AW so tend to remember back to the best of the good old days and push the ugly stuff to the side.

It is normal, my grandma does it, but I can assure you as much as she longs for the good old days (she is 89) I doubt she would really want the buggy and log cabin she had to deal with when she was 15.  I fired up AW the other day feeling nostalgic.  And I do love AH.  What I loved about AW was the people, and those people are here.

We choose how we fly.  Who cares what some other dweeb does or says when they fly, simply surround yourself with the people you like, who have similar goals and styles.  

The more that the "good" players support and chat amongst themselves on the airwaves, the more the newer less experienced community members will see what real comaraderie is, and then begin to emulate it.

You just have to have patience,  and understand that unless we try to teach them how Best to appreciate an online community, they will never gain more than their offline Doom type training gave them.  

Once they are taught, and chose to be dweebs, well, that's what dweeb hunts and mute buttons are for.

"Elders" have the responsibility to educate.  We do that in life, we do that in here.  Someone taught us basic values and manners, which is why there are some very good personalities in this game.

This product HT has produced gives alot of us old timer scenario fans some incredible tools to run events like we begged for in AW, the game has improved, the issues are the players.  The players are just people and learn from experience, well, buck up and let's show them what a community is.
ROC
Nothing clever here.  Please, move along.