Author Topic: how come the Ki-84 is rarely used?  (Read 2900 times)

Offline Karnak

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how come the Ki-84 is rarely used?
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2005, 05:45:36 PM »
I like the Ki-84 in AH a lot, but I really, really suck in it.  I cannot figure out why I am so much more successful in the big assed, lumbering Mossie than the nimble Ki-84.  It isn't only the guns or firepower either.  I generate a lot more firing opportunities in the Mossie than I do in the Ki-84.  Well, I do generate some semblence of gun solutions in the Ki-84, but they tend to be very brief crossing shots.  I do miss a lot more, but that is to be expected going from centerline mounted Hispanos to wing mounted Ho-5s.

Obviously I need more practice, but the other game I've been playing of late takes gobs of my free time.

Quote
Originally posted by MOSQ
IWas the real KI-84 unable to deploy flaps above 150?  When you look at them, the first notch looks like high speed fowler flaps on a P-51, or at least a P-38. You'd think the first notch could deploy just like a P-38 at moderate speeds. If they could, then the KI-84 would be one great ride!


I'm pretty sure the answer to this is "yes", but there is no documentation and AH is built on documentation.  The P-38 drivers can tell you all about that.

The first stage of the flaps on the Ki-84 are a combat setting and I cannot imagine that they had a combat setting limited to 150mph.
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Offline streetstang

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how come the Ki-84 is rarely used?
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2005, 05:51:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
It should be faster than the Pony, It should out turn the Pony as well.


:lol :lol :lol :aok

Offline MOSQ

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how come the Ki-84 is rarely used?
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2005, 05:52:30 PM »
I've been checking websites about the KI-84. About half say it has Fowler flaps with combat settings, the other half call them butterfly flaps.

If it really does have Fowler Flaps, we're missing out on a great deal of it's flight performance.

Offline Urchin

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how come the Ki-84 is rarely used?
« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2005, 06:25:32 PM »
If I understand correctly, "Fowler flaps" are just flaps that slide out instead of just down.. if you look at the Ki-84's flaps when you drop them they do exactly that.

And it is honestly quite simple..  99% of the arena min/maxes, even if it is only on an unconscious level.  

The fact that the Ki-84 is faster than a Spit 5 means nothing.  The Ki-84 goes in the "slow, turny plane" category.. top speed isn't an issue.  It is a given that unless you are in an El gay, Pee- fifty run, or the D-9 or G-10, you will be run down and horded eventually, unless you stick to your horde.  Even then, you have to be in an El gay or fly fairly conservatively to avoid that.

So, taking it as a given that any flight will end up as an X on 1, what criteria do we look at in a plane?  

As far as I can tell, there are really only 3- Firepower, Manueverability, and Acceleration.  

Firepower is fairly self- evident.  Keep in mind that your average MA'er can hit something only if it is flying straight at him, straight away from him, or moving very very very slowly.  So you need some serious firepower to make sure that any rounds you land actually do some damage.  The minimum criteria seems to be at least 2 Hispanos, or 4 of any other 20mm cannon (which makes sense, seeing as 4 regular 20mm cannon ~= 2 Hispanos).  The Ki-84 comes up lacking in this category.  2 12.7mm and 2 20mm Ho-5 isn't exactly breathtaking firepower.  If we get a model with 4 20mm, or ideally (for the MA) 2 30mm and 2 20mm (even if there were only 3 made) the plane would see more significant use.

Manuverability- This is perhaps the most important category, although I think for most people it ranks about even with firepower.  Overall, the Ki-84s manueverability is outstanding.  It will fly and fight at speeds under 100 mph, something that only a couple other planes can do.  Unfortunately (for the Ki), one of those planes is armed with 2 Hispanos.  The Spit V is fractionally more manueverable than the Ki-84, which is in turn more manueverable than the Spit IX or the Niki, albeit with half the firepower.  

Acceleration - This is kind of a red-headed step child, but I think it plays an important role nonetheless.  Not nearly as important as firepower or manueverability, but rather a sort of tiebreaker.  

For example, in choosing between the Hurri-2C and the Spit V.. which do you go with?  4 Hispanos is pretty much overkill, since 2 will do the job with a quick snapshot that lands.  Both planes will out-turn pretty much the rest of the planeset.. more significantly the Spit V can give a good account of itself in a brief turnfight against the Hurricane.  So I think for most people it comes down to acceleration.. the Spit V can keep up with anything up to around 300 mph or so, faster in a dive.  The Hurricane is left chugging exhaust.  So in choosing between adequate firepower / overkill firepower with manueverability roughly equal, it makes sense to pick the plane that can keep up with the runners long enough to land a lucky tail hit for the kill.

So my Kweassa-esque post comes to an end.. but the short version is the vast majority in the MA won't fly the Ki-84 because it comes up short against the Spit V.. minimize your disadvantages/ maximize your advantages..  Not just for MMORPGs anymore.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2005, 06:27:40 PM by Urchin »

Offline Karnak

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how come the Ki-84 is rarely used?
« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2005, 06:57:45 PM »
I'm still not clear why the Spit V had it's boost raised from +12lbs to +16lbs going from AH1 to AH2.
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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how come the Ki-84 is rarely used?
« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2005, 07:05:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
It should be faster than the Pony, It should out turn the Pony as well.


Faster than the pony at what altitudes? Out turn the pony at what speeds? Not that I'm a pony fan. It just helps to define exactly the parameters you speak of.

And as far as it goes, I see at least one Ki-84 on nearly every hop. Not nearly so many as Spits, Nikkis, La7s, hurris, ponies and such, but I see them all the time. I do think some were expecting an easy mode uber ride, and when they found it took skill and practice, they looked elsewhere. In fact, I think a lot of people were expecting it to maneuver like a Zero, run like an La7, and hit like an A-10 Warthog. When they found they'd have to practice to master it, and work when they flew it, they simply walked away.
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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how come the Ki-84 is rarely used?
« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2005, 07:09:02 PM »
Fowlers slide out, and fold down, depending on the setting. They give greater area to the wing without adding excess drag. IF you don't deploy them all the way. A notch or two increases wing area more than drag. More than that and it increases drag but not as fast as "standard" flaps.
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Offline streetstang

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how come the Ki-84 is rarely used?
« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2005, 07:16:34 PM »
It seems to me that some of you people wanted a plane that basicly would fight for you... There' isn't such a plane. The Ki84 being faster than the Pony D is nothing more than some fairy tale pipe dream. Can it out turn it? At slow speeds with equal pilots? Sure. High speed or 250mph+? No way.

Offline MOSQ

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how come the Ki-84 is rarely used?
« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2005, 07:26:21 PM »
I'm not looking for a miracle plane, I just want it modelled correctly. I have no pet allegiance to this plane, I could have cared less if it was brought to AHII at all.

It seems odd that the other planes with Fowler Flaps and one notch combat settings can deploy at moderate to high speeds, but the KI-84 is limited to 150 mph.

In War Birds and Air Warrior, it was modelled with high speed combat flaps.

It would be great if Pyro would chime in here and tell us what his research found when he was desigining the FM for this plane.

Offline Karnak

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how come the Ki-84 is rarely used?
« Reply #39 on: February 07, 2005, 08:09:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MOSQ
It would be great if Pyro would chime in here and tell us what his research found when he was desigining the FM for this plane.

IIRC, the guy who did research in Japan for them found that the pilot's manual limited the first notch to 250kph, or something like that.

What I'm not convinced of is that it was refering to the combat setting and not the first notch intended for landing.
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Offline Sikboy

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how come the Ki-84 is rarely used?
« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2005, 08:22:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
IIRC, the guy who did research in Japan for them found that the pilot's manual limited the first notch to 250kph, or something like that.


http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1452047#post1452047


Busa. Here's the thread where he went into some detail about his research. This might help Storch understand the modeling. Note that Busa's Japanese is much better than mine.

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Offline Engine

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how come the Ki-84 is rarely used?
« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2005, 08:36:39 PM »
I fell in love with the 84, despite the atrocious forward framing.  They make crossing shots difficult.  The acceleration is what I love best, coupled with the superb WEP recharge.  It's amazing how many people get suckered by the 84.  The low-speed maneuverability means when you botch a rope and see he's gonna have a shot, you can do some insane full-flaps turning shot denial until your WEP climb puts you solidly above him and he feels stupid.  

The cannons do take a little getting used to, though.  Only take the shots you know you'll hit and you'll do fine.

Course, the la7/spit combo following you all the way home spells trouble.

Offline Kweassa

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how come the Ki-84 is rarely used?
« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2005, 08:55:23 PM »
How fast is the Spit5 otd now anyway? The last time I checked the OTD speeds(whels's testings):


OTD Speeds with WEP engaged:

Tempest Mk.V: 386
La-7: 380
F4U-4: 378
Fw190D-9: 375
Typhoon Mk.Ib: 370
P-51D: 367
Bf109G-10: 366
Ta-152 361
Spitfire Mk.XIV 358
F4U-1: 358
P-51B: 358
F4U-1D: 357
F4U-1C: 356
La-5: 356
YaK-9U: 355
Fw190A-8: 349
Fw190F-8: 349
P-38L 344
P-47D-11 344
Ki-84-Ia: 344
P-47D-25 340
P-47D-30 340
Bf109G-2 340
.....
Spitfire Mk.IX: 319
.....
Seafire Mk.II: 302
Spitfire Mk.V: 302



 The only fighters that are slower than the Spit5/Seafire2 with +12 boost is the FM2, Spit1, Zeros, P-40s, and Hurricanes.


 Even if the Ki-84 WEP lasts so short the cool down is fast and the acceleration is very powerful. I've caught upto the F4U-1D in the list, who were trying to run away from the Ki-84 in a pure level chase. To be really safe from the Ki-84 you've got to be at least as fast as the P-51B.

 When the WEP runs out, you can risk a 15 second cooldown and re-engage it, and this will keep WEP running for more than another 30 seconds before it gasps out again. The speeds will drop down to 330~335 range and then it will accelerate again to over 340mph. Thus, after the initial 'charge' of the WEP runs out the average speed you can expect out of it still is about at 340mph.

 Unless the extra +4 boost increased the Spit5 speed by at least 30mph, the Spit5 still has no hope of catching a Ki-84-Ia whatsoever, unless it finds a Ki low and slow. I consider +/- 10mph to be the maximum margin of difference in speed a certain plane can be considered 'close enough in speed' to be caught up in pure level/slight dive chases.

 The margin of speed difference between the Spits 5 and 9 drops down with alt, but you'd be have to over 15k to really notice that "gee, at this alt the Spit ain't too slow compared to the Ki-84.." Anything lower than that and the Ki-84 is still vastly faster than both the Spit9 and the Spit5.

 The Ki-84 is not a 'slow' plane whatsoever. If we assume a 15~20mph increase in the Spit5 speed due to the +16 boost still the Ki-84 is at least 20mph faster. It's the best turning plane in the entire plane set that is capable of doing over 340mph OTD, or in other words, the fastest plane that can literally "turn like a Spit".
« Last Edit: February 08, 2005, 01:31:58 PM by Kweassa »

Offline Mitsu

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how come the Ki-84 is rarely used?
« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2005, 09:43:22 PM »
i didn't know Ki-84 has the same deck speed to P-47/P-37s with engaged WEP.

btw Kweassa, I hope you will work for another Ki-84 skin. Could you accept my request?

I'm currently loving 47th Sentai skin. Great work!

Offline TBolt A-10

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how come the Ki-84 is rarely used?
« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2005, 02:15:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa

OTD Speeds with WEP engaged:

Tempest Mk.V: 386
La-7: 380
F4U-4: 378
Fw190D-9: 375
Typhoon Mk.Ib: 370
P-51D: 367
Bf109G-10: 366
Ta-152 361
Spitfire Mk.XIV 358
F4U-1: 358
P-51B: 358
F4U-1D: 357
F4U-1C: 356
La-5: 356
YaK-9U: 355
Fw190A-8: 349
Fw190F-8: 349
P-38L 344
P-47D-11 344
Ki-84-Ia: 344
P-47D-25 340
P-47D-30 340
Bf109G-2 340
.....
Spitfire Mk.IX: 319
.....
Seafire Mk.II: 302
Sptfire Mk.II: 302



 


where did the Mossie fit in on this chart?

Thanks.