So i have problems with lead turning properly

[Naudet]

After spending a couple of hours in the DA it became obvious to me that i loss most 1v1 engagements (co-E, cold HO merge)in the intial 2 turns/reversals because i either try to go for a guns solution in them or because a lead turn i try is not properly timed.
Although i am not quit easy to shoot down after this initial mistake, i clearly know that to improve my 1v1 abilities i need to get away from positioning myself right into a disadvantage after the merge.
So how can i get better in properly executing the merge and lead turns?

One thing i already know - thx to Redd - is to try to pass below my opponent  on the merge so i can basicly reverse inside my opponents reversal.

[Engine]

I usually do a stupid little barrel roll over their head on the merge to deny a HO shot.  Works every time.

[Ghosth]

http://www.netaces.org/ahmain/siteframe.html#title

Hammer said it better than I can.

Remember though that a lead turn is just one of many options.  Use it when the conditions are right. When the conditions are not right, use something else.

Seperation is the key to a good lead turn, thats part of the reason for the dive under the nose.

The other is its much harder to hit someone below your nose than above your dash.

[Naudet]

I know that lead turning is just one option, but it is an important option.

If i remember right i somewhere read "That if a fighter pilot could only possess one ACM skill, this should be proper lead turning".

[Redd]

Originally posted by Naudet

So how can i get better in properly executing the merge and lead turns?

 

Hiya Naudet


Personally I am a big believer in stall-fighting/TnB as the key foundation for E-fighting .

Lead turns are really the key to good stall-fighting  (where energy conservation and management are less of an issue)

One thing that might really help is spend some time flying TnB as an exercise. Use a Spit or 109F and
 The TA and DA are great places for fight practice . You get more good fights in 30 minutes than a week in the MA

The timing of lead turns will come quickly by doing lots of them in that environment. You can then apply those  same techniques to the Dora those times when you need them in a  1-1.

[TequilaChaser]

Naudet,
if you didn't read all of the write-ups on lead turns on netaces read this one from SB, and remember gaining seperation before the turn is critical, instead of basically diving try doing both diving for vertical seperation mixed with manuevering offset/to the side for horizontal seperation. Instead of using a true immelman for your lead turn use an oblique one......the dive will give you much needed extra speed, the offset flight throws you out of plane when you turn, and timing is everything.....

SB's LeadTurn Write-Up


key thing when turning to gain angles is noticing that you are keeping the bogie in the center or forward of your direct up view, forward up view, forward view. If the bogie starts working his way to the back of straight up or back up, he is gaining angles you are losing and better try something different quick like.  practice your flying against your opponent with out looking forward view much if at all unless you on dead 6, always have your view spot on on the bandit so you know what he is doing so you can react to it ( read counter move )

Good Luck!

edited: Redd posted you fly the Dora , keep in mind to stay fast and with in your planes turning envelope, learn and know the lowest speed before you become disadvantage against other plane types, if you hit that critcal speed while turning look for an exit to extend and then setup for another merge if the conditions are favourable!

[grmrpr]

I have fought Redd in the DA and have lost.  Redd is very good.  Each time I have fought him he has dived below my nose.  No offense Redd but I think this is a cheap tactic.  In my experiences in WB and at the 97 Con.  The merge was always taught to me as having to be wings level at the merge at co-alt.  No plane should turn or move until wing tips have passed.  Not only are you diving down but you are pulling up before the merge takes place.  Since a no HO call was made there is no counter for the tactic other than dive down with you.

I am not saying I think the outcome of the fights would have been differant just saying that the tactic of diving below the target in a 1v1 DA fight is wrong in my book.  AC should pass co-alt wingtip to wingtip in the same energy states heading in opposing directions.

GrmRpr

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by grmrpr

 just saying that the tactic of diving below the target in a 1v1 DA fight is wrong in my book.  AC should pass co-alt wingtip to wingtip in the same energy states heading in opposing directions.

 

GrmRpr,

there really is no rules straight up in the DA unless agreed upon before the duel 1 vs 1.
with that said, for those on the dueling ladder here is something some never have done..you must be co alt at ICON range!!!!! get it, by the way the rules are written, at ICON range you can actually do anything you want GRAB ALT!, DIVE! turn away from the bogie....

most all(that are familar with the maneuver) in a 1 vs 1 in the DA will dive at each other trying their best to be the lowest....sometimes this is to funny, I have actually had people auger trying to get below me

but a cold 1st merge is nothing more than guns cold........the only way to have it like you have stated it is to make that a certian rule of engagement before you go at it......just saying

[grmrpr]

I appreciate that.  In no way am I implying anything negative toward Redd.  He is a good guy and a great stick.  I guess my past experiences just do not apply here.

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by Naudet
I know that lead turning is just one option, but it is an important option.

At the most basic level (i.e., the only one I know well), the two biggest factors in a successful lead turn are separation and timing.  (Lead turn, of course, can be in any plane, and usually is actually in the vertical.)

Separation isn't something that you can unilaterally control, because the other guy is doing something, too.  Most people seem to think that you need quite a bit of separation for a good lead turn, but it seemsto me to be rare that you can actually do this.

Timing is the one thing you have complete control over.  I've seen the good pilots differing, in marked degrees, on when to begin your turn.  Some think you should start your turn when relatively far away, so that you complete the turn in close proximity to the target.  Others think you should delay your turn until you have nearly (or actually) passed the target, in order to get an opportunity to shoot him/her during the post-merge turn or climb.  I used to be in the first group, but I think I've had better success with the second.

The point is that there really isn't any substitute for just getting out there and doing it.  Timing, in particular, will be different when flying in, or against, different planes, and you won't know how until you've done it.

- oldman

[DamnedRen]

Gonna add the third piece of a successful lead turn, Oldman.
You also need energy.  

Separation gives you the turning room (angles) to get around to his 6.

Lead turn begins the turn before you ever get to him.

Speed (for energy retention) provides the power to come around to his 6 and maintain time on target.

Danger - if you lead to soon he gets a belly shot.

Defense - jam him. Close to a cockpit to cockpit pass without allowing a HO shot. This takes away the angles.

Ren

[grmrpr]

In thinking about it then guns should be allowable at any time.  In my humble opinion it is not a ho if you are shooting down into the ac that is trying to dive...  At that point it is not a nose to nose pass.

[DamnedRen]

LOL, it's interesting to note that in World WarII very few fighters pointed their nose directly at another fighter's nose and began firing. Life was a bit more precious back then. And....this is a game.

Since it's a game you're free to take any shot you want! Enjoy yourself! You might find that most AH veterans can easily sidestep your shot and get on your 6.

Perhaps learning to turn the tables and get on his 6 might be more enjoyable in game play. The accomplishment of beating the other dude in a 1v1 fight can also be fun!

Do whatever you want as long as your having fun doing it.  
Ren

[grmrpr]

We are talking about 1v1 in the DA.  I always try to aviod the HO.

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by grmrpr
In thinking about it then guns should be allowable at any time.  In my humble opinion it is not a ho if you are shooting down into the ac that is trying to dive...  At that point it is not a nose to nose pass.

it is not a HO, it is a canopy or high degree front quarter shot,  and on initial merge anything goes unless you have set rules in place ( in regards to 1vs1 DA style)
which most instances is cold guns initial merge only

in MA we all know anything goes and the gun solution you can acquire in the above quote is perfectly normal by some, but I would rather not push negative G's to try and nose down to acquire such a shot, which also means if I am trying to do this I am giving up the angles advantage before I ever cross the 3/9 line of the enemy