close distance overshoot

[terracota]

HI all.

lately Im having some problems with close distance overshots.

I allways fly the f4ud corsair so please make any comments or sugestions thinking in that I only fly the corsair. well almost all the time  

here's the description:

I worked to have the con at my 12 oc Im about 1k or more of distance betwen he an I
ok if he breaks I dont have to much problems
to avoid the overshot.
my really problem is when Im at guns range or near guns range specially 600 or less of distance.
I allways try To lag persuit when Im closing to enemy them when at guns range I shot but if he breaks at the very last moment so:

should I h-yoyo?
I think any lag displacement roll dont works here because I dont have enougth separation or E to perform it.
So I generally H-yoyo , but all the time I lose the enmy because I have to pull to hard to keep it in my 9 or 10 or 3  2 oc view , if he is an angles figther like a spit the situation gets wrost I allways finish losing angle . ok what Im doing wrong?? what should I do to avoid overshot and dont loose angle? when Im behind an enemy with not too much E diference and if he is an angles figther?

I see this problem on 1 vrs. 1 figth, because when he breaks , he continue to bank to any side drawing a continues circle, but if ,more friendly planes involved I dont have any problem because the con breaks them he gos a little straigth and my yoyo works fine but if he breaks and contiue the break drawing a shape like a circle them I mess it all  

any help please?
 


[This message has been edited by terracota (edited 11-02-2000).]

[eskimo]

Within 600, I would just go for the shot.  Lead and squeeze.

eskimo

[hblair]

Most of the time the enemy is watching you gain on him, and throttles back at d600 or so, to try to cause you to overshoot. If I'm the pursuer and see myself gaining on him suddenly, I hit full throttle & WEP, and go vertical, as I'm headed up, I roll 45 degrees and look down at him, and set up the next shot, be careful not to bleed too much energy in your bounces, as you will be in danger of handing over control of the fight to him.

Hope I've helped...

[humble]

The "correct" response to an overshoot is to roll 90 degrees away from flight path and go up (rough translation of Shaw). The key is to stay behind the "mendoza line"...once you cross into the cons front quadrent your in trouble. Hblair's counter fits this all the way, trade your E for alt while maintaining a rear hemisphere position, the real area for variation is in the visability issue...how you maintain vis on your target...i'll end up inverted sometimes to keep vis. Remember if you've got a fast closure rate and dont bleed off to much E you'll have plenty to reengage...as long as you keep vis on con

[terracota]

Skimo
what if I miss the shot?
and I never shot beyond 400 because I cant kill nothing beyond 400 , maybe is my armament or my latency or I suck     but I never shot beyond that , so???

hblair
ok good but I do that if my closure range is to high or I have a good E advantage if I see I will overshot what I do is nose up roll inverted and dive, but this only works for me if he is flying straigth less E or make an small break turn not a sustained break turn  ,  because he can be flying an spit or any other good E retainer and he can turn zoom with me if he see my manuever and catch me at the end of the zoom or makes me loose the angle advantage, remember my question : "he is same or little just little E less tham me, and with an spit or niki and I flying the corsair he can reach my zoom. Im wrong? or I dont understanded your help?    

humble
ok but remeber I dont have a big E diference with him just a little or the same , he can catch me up or if he decides to dont catch me I cant climb to much to gain separation to dive again and if hes a good angles figther he will try to denied me  some separation , and I fried  
Im wrong ???? any comments???

thanks for posts


[This message has been edited by terracota (edited 11-02-2000).]

[This message has been edited by terracota (edited 11-02-2000).]

[humble]

If your E closure is minimal then eskimo is right...take the shot...the hitting range on the 20mm is 700 or more. The key to hitting with em at that range is having the G's unloaded...you cant pull G's and fire at long range with certainly...get nose ahead of con and hose him...in the 1d you have bigger issue but still you need to take the shot. I'd commit early to a lead turn...unload as best I can and angle down and behind con ...even if he turns to follow you'll out run him. Truthfully you shouldnt be engaging under circumstances you describe...an almost co-e hog needs to look for a way out.

[Rocket]

hmble please reread the original post slowly he doesn't have 20mm just 6 kickass .50s  

For me if the con break flat or obliquely down or split S I usually pull up and roll the opposite direction.  I don't pull a max alt zoom if he is going in a general downward direction because I don't want a ton of vertical seperation.  Just enough I can see what he is doing and make my next move.  If I go too high then I get too much speed to work with when I re-engage.  If he keeps wanting to go down down down I will move on to the next con or wait for him to come back up. The last thing I want is to end up below 2k with a better turning plane and no good escape routes.  
  If I am 600 out and slow closure and he makes a flat break I will try to lead him for a snapshot but I know if I miss it could lead to a reversal if I am not careful on what I do after the shot.  Usually a roll away and up to recover any lost E.  With the 6 .50s I try not to shoot before 300yds unless I am trying to make him break for me and slow down  

S!
Rocket
Remember not everyone that says F4U means Chog  

[Andy Bush]

terracota

>>Truthfully you shouldnt be engaging under circumstances you describe...an almost co-e hog needs to look for a way out.<<

This observation made by Humble is the one overriding truth in this situation. We can go back and forth all day long about firing techniques, ammo loads, and follow-on maneuvers, but the simple fact is that an energy fighter had better be real good if he is going to climb in the phone booth with an angles fighter.

Because once he is there, it's going to be real hard to get out in one piece if he doesn't kill the bandit right off the bat.

There is no free lunch in A2A. There is no such thing as a guaranteed maneuver to save your bacon. When you slow down to enter the turn circle of a bandit who can outturn you, you are throwing caution to the wind...the chances of the guy taking it all away from you is very good.

As this situation is described, the energy fighter will be unable to generate a turn rate of sufficient magnitude to be able to follow the bandit through a break turn...let alone lead him sufficiently to have a tracking solution. As for over-lead to set up a snap shot...that is even less likely. It all boils down to turn rate, and the angles fighter is holding all the cards in this situation.

Terracota...you have two choices, neither very good. You can break away from the direction of the bandit turn to set up an extension. I'd suggest a hard turn of about 135 degrees bank to get my lift vector below the horizon. Turn at least 90-135 degrees to put the bandit back at your 5 to 7 o'clock. Then roll out and run for it.

Or you could try a yo-yo to get out of plane with the bandit. I think this is less advisable than the extension, primarily due to your depleted energy state that you began the situation with. You don't have the speed to get the nose out of plane enough to make the maneuver effective. If the bandit goes up with you, then you are truly hurting. My advice...don't do it...dump and run instead.

That said...here's some more advice. Don't slow down with a better turning bandit. Unless you are absolutely sure you are going to kill him deader than a doornail.

And then, if you are absolutely sure, pause for a moment and ask yourself, "Do I really want to do this?" The answer is no.

Andy

[terracota]

ok very clear ,
this means that an E figther just have to look for the snapshot kill?
an E figther must be the best shoter? because when you r fast you dont have to much time to aim your guns and boooom!!!!
maybe something like a shot and run tactic?
Im wrong?
ok this is 1vrs1 figth,
but when more planes in the figth maybe 4 freindlies and you vrs a sinlge niki, or spit, etc. you dont need to be so precatious because he is not just watching you , ok here I comes again with my original question, Im behind him 600 or less not big E advantage or same , 3 more friendlies chasing him he break turn , so I cant match his turn with my f4ud should I follow him in lag persuit?? or what should I do, I dont have to worry to much about losing angle because there r more friendls , and I want this kill  
any suggestions? tips?

and please remember I not fly the chog so I dont have big guns to get the kill fast  
one day I shoted a niki a lot of flashes on him and finally other enemy plane shoted me down and I never saw the "you shoted dow xxx" so you need a good time of shot to kill some one with the f4ud.

thanks to all for posts and help
 

[Rickenbacker]

While I fly the pony almost exclusively, there isn't much difference in the two planes, so I'll tell you what I'd do  .

If caught in a furball, on the tail of a N1K or equivalent, and he breaks hard, I'd turn slightly to try and remain on his belly side (so he can't see me, never hurts) and then extend and grab altitude. With a slightly worse turning plane (i.e. a P-38, 109) I might try a low yo-yo at this point, gaining angles with help from gravity, but this gives me one snapshot at best, then he's got all the time in the world to dive down on me and kill me.

Andy's right, your guns pass should be made with a significant E advantage, in that case you might try a high yo-yo in this case, and if that doesn't work, you'll still have a decent chance of escape in the vertical.


------------------
        Rickenbacker (Ricken)

                -ISAF-
the Independent Swedish Air Force

[humble]

hehe Rocket...I did catch that, thats why I added the .50 comment...for you who labor in the garden of woe. Actually from what I've seen the FM for the hog in 1.04 allows for significantly greater options here...but doesn't the 1d actually turn worse than the 1c now???

Rickenbocker...only question I have there is your setting up a scissors fight you cant win if he rev into you.

Andy...my thought on early lead and unload is a snap shot can unsettle con enough to force error, if he tightens his turn to counter...my extension "down and away" should be safer. If he gets cute and rev into my lead I may get a nice view, of course he will own me if he pulls it off...assuming the low E diff in original set up.

[Andy Bush]

Terracota

Let's take each of your questions in turn...

>>this means that an E figther just have to look for the snapshot kill?<<

Not at all. I'm suggesting that an energy fighter places himself at a disadvantage when he slows down to engage a better turning target. You do not need to be co-speed or close to it to accomplish atracking gunshot. You can close on a target and track it...you may have less tracking time, but, taking into consideration the length of a typical firing burst, you should be able to deal a killing blow. But, in all honesty, if you are having difficulty in aiming properly, then additional closure will work against you.

>>because when you r fast you dont have to much time to aim your guns and boooom!!!!
maybe something like a shot and run tactic?
Im wrong?<<

No...not wrong...there are few rights and wrongs...only "betters or worse'ers"! If you doubt your ability to track well, then a snapshot is OK, but the probability of kill is less, particularly if your armament is less effective than others.

Please understand that a snapshot is, by definition, a non-tracking shot. This is not the same as a tracking shot done with closure.

The point is that coming in with good closure gives you another option...and that is the ability to reposition or extend more effectively than if you were co-speed.

>>but when more planes in the figth...you dont need to be so precatious because he is not just watching you<<

That may be true...if you have some buddies to cover you, you may be willing to take some risks with a bandit. It all depends on how well they can get in to cover your six!

>>ok here I comes again with my original question...3 more friendlies chasing him he break turn...should I follow him in lag persuit?? or what should I do<<

For me, staying in lag is not the choice I would make. Instead, I would pull up and look for another entry from above. This assumes that the bandit is being made predictable because he is now defending against my buddies.

Why not lag? Because you are trapped in a relatively high G, energy depleting situation with no ability to regain the offensive if the bandit stays in his defensive turn. By going into the vertical, you may be able to take advantage of the out of plane situation to cut across the bandit's turn.

Keep those questions coming!

Andy

 

[Andy Bush]

Humble

I understand. I was thinking of the situation where the energy fighter has slowed down to corner velocity or less. Now, if the angles fighter breaks, it will probably be able to generate a greater turn rate than the energy fighter. If so, the energy fighter will be unable to get enough G to get his nose in lead.

Andy

[terracota]

more questions??? huuuummm!!

ok here I go:

to make the all concept small :
1) if Im less E or same E vrs. an Angles f.
   and no more friendlis to cover I better     go away and not engage
  rigth????

2) better E vrs angles F. dive onto him them if he breaks , I extend and zoom
  rigth????

3) allways try to aim my nose to a diferent point of his flyghtpath
  rigth????

4) this is a dumb question:
   when I extend after the pass and zoom , at the end of the zoom , is better some kind of immelman, or a flat turn at the top, an oblique turn,to get ready for the next shot pass ?

I liked this post very clear, and now the spits, zeros, nokis etc, dont will kill me so easy  

and the only thing I miss of this post are Andy's graphics  

[Andy Bush]

terracota

Well...I hate absolutes...so the answers are:

1. Yes
2. Yes

Sorta!!  

Seriously...

1. If you want to slow down with the angles guy, then you better kill him because you won't be able to stay behind his 3/9 line for very long.

2. You can extend two ways...lateral or vertical. The lateral (or horizontal) is commonly thought of as a 'dump and run'...a descending turn away with the intent on outrunning the bandit until you can get enough room to turn around and re-engage him. You cannot do this to a bandit that can fly as fast (or nearly so) as you.

Or you can extend vertically...this is usually seen as a High Yo-Yo or a Quarter Plane, depending on the severity of the maneuver. This where the term 'yo-yoing off' comes from. You trade your extra airspeed for altitude above the bandit with the intent on diving back into the fight for another pass.

If you want more info on this...and the graphics to explain it all...please read my Boom and Zoom articles at SimHQ. I cover all of this in detail.

Here are two typical figures from those articles:

 

 

Andy


[This message has been edited by Andy Bush (edited 11-03-2000).]