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Author Topic: The enigma of the Bf-109  (Read 10560 times)

Offline HoHun

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #150 on: February 20, 2005, 12:03:32 PM »
Hi again,

>Personally I think the 109E & F4 were outstanding for their time. THe spit V outclassed them both and the balance wasnt restored till the 190-A3 was introduced.

Anlysis of Me 109E with DB601N vs. Spitfire Vc with +12 lbs/sqin:

http://hometown.aol.de/HoHunKhan/Me109E-NvsSpitfireVc.gif

Turn rate omitted for clarity. Some data points:

Altitude - Me 109E turn rate - Spitfire V turn rate
0 km - 22.2 °/s - 22.9 °/s
2 km - 19.7 °/s - 20.5 °/s
4 km - 16.7 °/s - 18.1 °/s
6 km - 13.9 °/s - 14.3 °/s
8 km - 10.2 °/s - 10.5 °/s

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
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Offline humble

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #151 on: February 20, 2005, 06:55:56 PM »
Personal attack
« Last Edit: February 21, 2005, 03:47:25 PM by Skuzzy »
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Offline humble

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #152 on: February 20, 2005, 06:57:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
Hi again,

>Personally I think the 109E & F4 were outstanding for their time. THe spit V outclassed them both and the balance wasnt restored till the 190-A3 was introduced.

Anlysis of Me 109E with DB601N vs. Spitfire Vc with +12 lbs/sqin:

http://hometown.aol.de/HoHunKhan/Me109E-NvsSpitfireVc.gif

Turn rate omitted for clarity. Some data points:

Altitude - Me 109E turn rate - Spitfire V turn rate
0 km - 22.2 °/s - 22.9 °/s
2 km - 19.7 °/s - 20.5 °/s
4 km - 16.7 °/s - 18.1 °/s
6 km - 13.9 °/s - 14.3 °/s
8 km - 10.2 °/s - 10.5 °/s

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


How about providing the underlying report instead of a graph with no pilot input....
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Offline Grendel

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #153 on: February 21, 2005, 05:33:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble

 The 109 by 1942 was unable to fulfill its primary mission as an air superiority fighter on any front.
 please explain why the allies were able to project a forward area of operations over the continent from 1941 until D-day but the germans were unable to contest the skies over england in any meaningful way.

A third area to look at would be the "airwar" over the Med in support of German forces in North Africa.
 [/B]


In France Luftwaffe had two squadrons of fighters opposing teh whole RAF and USAAF. What kind of force projection those might be able to do? The two squadrons were "holding the front", and were fighting with a positivive 3-1 - 5-1 kill ratio.

In Africa the Luftwaffe fighters had rather complete air superiority, until the Allied numbers and fuel shortages finally changed that.

And I wonder that the capability of the Me 109 has to do with protecting convoys? That wasn't the job of single seat interceptors. Convoy escort was handled by longer legged two engine fighters like the German Me 110 and Ju 88 and by the Italians, even seaplanes.  

The fighting at Kuban is unknown entity to me, but I'd say you're more or less totally incorrect on your assumptions on western or mediterranean fronts, since you seem to lack the larger picture what was actually there and what their missions were.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2005, 06:44:46 AM by Grendel »
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Offline Angus

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #154 on: February 21, 2005, 10:28:29 AM »
"In France Luftwaffe had two squadrons of fighters opposing teh whole RAF and USAAF"

Emmm, not exactly. Gescwader is AFAIK even bigger than a wing in RAF terms.

Anyway, from the finnish translated manual, there is some data on the 109G6.
Takeoff run 400 m
climb: 1 min to 1 km, 2 mins to 2, 3 mins to 3, 5 mins 15 secs to 5km, 10 mins to 8 km, 17 mins to 11 km, ceiling 11 km.
Speeds: 540 km sl, 650 km at 5 km, top 620 at 8km.
 
Range 550 km, hence operation radius some 260 km.

Weight  is ca 3500 kg.
Engine DB 605, supercharger alt 5,7 km

So, I have a question. Is this a typical Gustav?
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline GScholz

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #155 on: February 21, 2005, 10:41:04 AM »
Sounds fairly average yes. Just over 3000 fpm at normal climb power (Kampf und Steig). 406 mph at ~16k. 387 mph at ~25k.

A Gescwader is approx. the same as a RAF/US wing. A typical Jagdgescwader had 8 to 12 Staffeln (squadrons) all located at one airfield, or at a small number of airfields closely grouped.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2005, 10:44:35 AM by GScholz »
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Offline Angus

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #156 on: February 21, 2005, 10:46:40 AM »
Well this one is quite outclassed by the 109F presented here then?
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline MiloMorai

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #157 on: February 21, 2005, 10:49:06 AM »
Right Angus.

A LW staffel = a RAF squadron

A LW Gruppe is compose of 12 (usually) staffels.

A LW JG is composed of 3 (usually)  Gruppes.

That gives JG2 and JG26 72 staffels(squadrons).

There was also JG 1 and part of JG 3 in Denmark which would cover Holland.


Angus, did you notice the turn times for the 109?
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Offline GScholz

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #158 on: February 21, 2005, 11:00:19 AM »
Yes Milo, my mistake. I was thinking of Gruppe, not Geschwader.

Initially a typical Geschwader had three guppen, but later in the war four Gruppen was the normal Geschwader strength.
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Offline MiloMorai

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #159 on: February 21, 2005, 11:03:11 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Yes Milo, my mistake. I was thinking of Gruppe, not Geschwader.

Initially a typical Geschwader had three guppen, but later in the war four Gruppen was the normal Geschwader strength.


I wasn't correcting you since I did not see your post till mine was posted.
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Offline GScholz

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #160 on: February 21, 2005, 11:03:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Well this one is quite outclassed by the 109F presented here then?


No, nut by much. The G would be the better climber while the F is somewhat faster.
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Offline GScholz

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #161 on: February 21, 2005, 11:05:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MiloMorai
I wasn't correcting you since I did not see your post till mine was posted.


Never the less you were correct and I was wrong, and I wanted to make note of that.
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Offline Angus

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #162 on: February 21, 2005, 12:46:32 PM »
Scholzie, I forgot, this 109 from the FAF is optimized for 87 oct.
So, I have no idea how much boost, 1.3 ata maybe?
THe performance looks rather similar to a russian test of a captured 109G.
The faster 109F would be 1.42 ata, and then, later the 109G's were boosted into some whooping numbers, like 1.9?
Anyway, a 109G on 1.42 should then have provided even morew Hp and been equally fast as the 109F, right?
Does anyone have an idea how that worked with engine lifetime?
And when various boost settings became standards?
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline TimRas

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #163 on: February 21, 2005, 01:16:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MiloMorai

A LW Gruppe is compose of 12 (usually) staffels.


Definitely not. Typical early war Gruppe had 3 staffels, together around 40 planes.
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Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #164 on: February 21, 2005, 01:46:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TimRas
Definitely not. Typical early war Gruppe had 3 staffels, together around 40 planes.


me bad ;)

I Gruppe - 1, 2, 3 staffel
II Gruppe - 4, 5, 6 staffel
III Gruppe - 7, 8, 9 staffel
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