Author Topic: The enigma of the Bf-109  (Read 10278 times)

Offline DiabloTX

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« on: February 09, 2005, 09:47:31 PM »
I have been a fan of WWII aviation, and aviation in general, for most of my life.  Those of us here on this BBS can trace our tracks here due to some infatuation with a warbird of any given era.  Narrower still, some of us can be grouped in to classes of what we like most; the rough and tumble FW-190, the graceful and deadly Spitfire, the all-too American character of the P-47, the nimble and manueverable Japanese fighters.  For me it was, and always will be, about radial engined fighters, namely the FW-190.  

As a kid I built many model airplanes that were available in the local five and dime store.  The ONLY place you would find me in the school library was in the WWII section.  Of the books I have read in my lifetime roughly 70% are about WWII aircraft.  I feel that I am confident about basic facts of most fighters from the era and I know some of you are complete experts in the field.  One thing that has struck me is I have never been a huge fan of the Bf-109.  The more I have read or continue to read about it, the more this machine baffles me.  

Here we have a fighter that, by rights, was not a long term answer to Germany's need for a pursuit aircraft, yet there it was at every front, on every continent they fought at.  I was an odd design, not given to too much improvement yet by 1945 the K's were still highly lethal.  It was cramped and only marginally comfortable.  It had bad ground characteristics.  It had a heavy port wing dip on take off that didn't help matters.  It didn't carry enough fire power to be respected, for the most part, unless it had pods attached.  And yet, it was still feared.  It was the mount of the experten, the only mount for them.  It was a fighter to be not solely loved, but to be equally respected.  It was, as I would say, a fighter pilot's fighter plane.  And yet it was still considered obsolete even up to its last days.  

What I am getting at is how did a plane with seemingly so little to offer in it's initial production become such a well respected and highly coveted fighter through it's career in WWII?  Even with all of it's short comings?

It truly is the most enigmatic WWII frontline fighter of them all.
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Offline Urchin

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2005, 11:55:48 PM »
I don't know.. in AH you can take the 109 to a place the 190 just can't go.  The least manueverable 109 (G-6, in my opinion) is still on a completely different level in a fight than the most manueverable 190 (the A5, in my opinion).  

I've heard it was the same in real life.. the 190 was a much better plane for "average" pilots, but a lot of the really high scoring guys prefered the 109's flight characteristics.  

They both have their strengths and weaknesses, but I'd rate the G-10 as the second best "fighter" in the game, behind the La-7, in terms of flight performance.  The A-5 is way down the list for me, with the D-9 and A-8 back farther.

Offline Glasses

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2005, 01:28:42 AM »
Urch that's cus you don't have the force.

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Offline HoHun

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Re: The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2005, 01:29:21 AM »
Hi Diablo,

>What I am getting at is how did a plane with seemingly so little to offer in it's initial production become such a well respected and highly coveted fighter through it's career in WWII?  

It simply was a good fighter.

The Me 109 had had it strengths in areas of primary importance, while the weaknesses were in areas of secondary importance. The literature in the past has often focussed on the weaknesses, exaggerating them occassionally, and that has given the Me 109 an undeservedly bad reputation.

If you look at it, the much maligned Me 109 is surprisingly similar to the highly praised Spitfire in most aspects. I'm sure that if the Messerschmitt had been a British company and Supermarine a German one, you'd now be asking just the same question about the Spitfire ;-)

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Henning (HoHun)

Offline hogenbor

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Re: Re: The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2005, 02:39:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun


If you look at it, the much maligned Me 109 is surprisingly similar to the highly praised Spitfire in most aspects. I'm sure that if the Messerschmitt had been a British company and Supermarine a German one, you'd now be asking just the same question about the Spitfire ;-)

 


That might not be far from the truth... the winners write history don't they?

If the 109 really was that bad, it wouldn't have been built until 1945 and beyond (Czech and Spanish versions).

But I fear a new endless 109 thread coming up...

Offline GScholz

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2005, 03:23:39 AM »
Franz Strigler put it like this: The experten were used to the 109. They knew the plane's performance capabilities and vices intimately and flew it more or less by instinct. These experten who had flown the 109 for years were very reluctant to convert to another aircraft they knew nothing about, even if it was technically better.
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: Re: The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2005, 03:49:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
If you look at it, the much maligned Me 109 is surprisingly similar to the highly praised Spitfire in most aspects. I'm sure that if the Messerschmitt had been a British company and Supermarine a German one, you'd now be asking just the same question about the Spitfire ;-)


Damn well put! :)
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Offline Guppy35

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2005, 04:10:21 AM »
I guess I'm a bit confused.  Since when has the 109 been seen as anything less then a great fighter aircraft from the Second World War?

Without getting into the Spit v 109 bit I think it's safe to say that they paralleled each other in development over the years.  Both designed essentially as interceptors and forced to adapt to an ever changing demand for use in roles they were not originally designed for.  What other prewar fighter aircraft can make that claim?

That the 109 was there before the war and seen as the premier fighter aircraft in the world and that it was still able to compete with the best fighters of the war at the end of WW2 speaks volumes to it's design and adaptability.

And where is this literature bashing the 109.  I've been reading and researching WW2 aviation for close to 40 years now since I was a kid and I don't remember ever coming across anything like that.

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storch

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2005, 07:23:02 AM »
Though not immediately apparent in AH, the Bf109 was evey bit the equal of anything the allied forces ever fielded.  So was the FW 190.  Numbers won WWII.  The allied forces were the equivalent of the nit horde.  In the end the Americans and the Brits looked like two fat kids fighting over a "twinky" in the school playground. :D

Offline Angus

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2005, 08:11:08 AM »
And yet, the LW lost the first time they met an organized force in numbers...

109 Rocks still the same.
My favourite ride in AH at the moment.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Rob Cashman

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2005, 08:23:10 AM »
The 109 was a good fighter but IMO it owed it's longevity more to political alignments and bad decisions by  the Nazi's than for it's novel, mid 1930's design.

 Heinkel had the 112 which IMO, and many others, was a superior plane to the 109.  A couple of years later the HE-100. Again a better plane than the 109.  A few years later again Heinkel had the HE-280 development going very well and was much further along than the ME-262 but it did not get far.  And even the HE-162 was superior but the Nazi's waited so long to develop and produce it that it had to use plywood in it's construction.
 Why were the Heinkel designs ignored, passed by or delayed until too late?  Because Willy Messerschmidt was the party and RLM favorite.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2005, 08:35:49 AM by Rob Cashman »

Offline Angus

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2005, 09:10:32 AM »
Willy was not favoured by all, I belive Erhardt Milch had a horn in his side...
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline DiabloTX

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2005, 09:47:37 AM »
HoHun-
My thoughts exactly about the comparison with the Spit.

It was not my intention to downplay the capabilities of the 109 but to illustrate in the literature that I have read that the 109 shouldn't have been as good as it was at the end of its career but it was.  It seems that they write things as "Its airframe was too small for developement" or "Its landing gear strained at the added weight" or things to that effect.  I guess it just amazes me that this little airplane could take on all the modifications and still kick ass.

I don't want this to turn into an endless 109 vs. XXXX thread, technicalities isn't what this is about.  In no way do I think it's an inferior fighter, that's just my point.  It seems like it should be but the 109 obviously was a winner throughout its lifetime.

I also like the 190 better for purely aesthetic resons only.  But that is a completely different subject.
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Offline DiabloTX

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2005, 09:52:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Franz Strigler put it like this: The experten were used to the 109. They knew the plane's performance capabilities and vices intimately and flew it more or less by instinct. These experten who had flown the 109 for years were very reluctant to convert to another aircraft they knew nothing about, even if it was technically better.


Yes.  And I remember Barkhorn saying something to the effect that when he commanded a squadron of 190D's he and his adjutant deferred to 109K's.  Asked if he thought the K's were better he said, "No, I know the 109's better and can get more out of them.  The 190D is a better plane."

That's really the same thing Ritt. Manfred Von Richthofen did in the Spring of 1918 when he chose to stay with the Fokker Dr. I instead of the more technically superior plane available at the time.
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Offline Halo

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2005, 10:07:22 AM »
Excellent thread, DiabloTX.  I too have always been a WWII aircraft buff although I'm clearly at best only a low average in comparison to the expertise evident in the Aces High bulletin boards.  

From what I've read over the years, the 109's best strength seems to be its ability to outclimb most opponents.  Which is the way many Aces High experts use it.  Climb and pounce, climb and pounce, choose your engagement, climb away home when you need to.

That first came home to me in Air Warrior when I was in a 109 chased by a couple P-51s.  I just kept climbing and pretty soon there was no way they were going to catch me.  I was surprised then and still am by the 109.  

I've always marvelled that a fighter introduced in the 1930s could remain a deadly opponent for 20 years until the end of WWII.
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