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Author Topic: The enigma of the Bf-109  (Read 10279 times)

Offline Kurfürst

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #270 on: March 06, 2005, 02:50:39 PM »
Crumpp it is just plain obvious that you don`t know how the 109`s engine control system worked at all, you just automatically assume that it was totally inferior to the BMW kommandogereat... as usual, you make your fantasies and then repeat them.

Last chance, crumpp : what engine functions did the system on the 109 controlled ? If you can`t answer, that`s an answer by itself : you have no idea.
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Offline Crumpp

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #271 on: March 06, 2005, 03:37:22 PM »
Barbi,

The DB605 series did posses many of the same functions.  

In the DB series all of these "automatic" functions worked independantly, each regulating it's piece of the pie.  

The Kommandogerat of the 801 series tied them all together so that each system could be balanced off the others to achieve optimum performance.   ALL of these were done in real time.  


Notice all that stuff connecting everything together in the diagram?

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: March 06, 2005, 03:41:24 PM by Crumpp »
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Offline GScholz

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #272 on: March 06, 2005, 03:39:28 PM »
Shut up Kurfürst. You working too hard on making the 109 the stunninghunk-ride of Aces High.
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Offline Kurfürst

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #273 on: March 06, 2005, 03:50:52 PM »
Crumppy,

just keeping repeating that the BMW 801 could do it in real time, and automatically assuming that the DB 605s was entirely different, and repeating that again isn`t any convincing.

You couldn`t answer my question.

Would you please list your references on which you based your statements regarding the 109`s single level control operation methods?

Is there any?
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Offline Angus

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #274 on: March 06, 2005, 06:14:02 PM »
I think Crumpp was wasting his time with his answers, for what I can see they are pretty solid.
Now go and browse the Zundersite Barbi.
Goodnight :D
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Kurfürst

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #275 on: March 06, 2005, 06:19:33 PM »
Angie, it`s already bedtime, you still up? Leave now and let the adults discuss things seriously, you are not grown up enough yet to participate in such. :D
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Offline Angus

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #276 on: March 06, 2005, 06:34:21 PM »
It may be bedtime for you Izzy, but an Angus is a rather waking creature.
Pity that there are people in my computer room, ooops.

Go to sleep yourself little girl, for the clocks in Hungary are not set the same as in Iceland :D
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #277 on: March 06, 2005, 06:35:22 PM »
P.S.
Can you please put my name on your ignore list in bold?
TY in advance :D
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Meyer

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #278 on: March 06, 2005, 10:01:40 PM »
Schwarze man said this in the LEMB:

Quote
Further to the Kommandogerate question. No, the 213 had full automatic engine and propellor control which was far better than the BMW KG system. The BMW system was not the be all/ end all that is portrayed! It suffered from design weaknesses and was an over-complex system which was out-performed by the less complex systems of DB and Jumo!! The Jumo 213 had a single-lever power control with automatic propellor. AFAIK it worked better than the BMW system. You can look it up on the NACA history site!
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Offline Crumpp

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #279 on: March 06, 2005, 10:14:36 PM »
Accoding to Gosshawk (Yellow 10) and Bendix, the 213's KG and the BMW KG were the same thing made by the same company (Bendix).  The one that rebuilt ours at White 1.

Now it was very much improved over the 1942 version that the NACA tested.  The design was constantly improved upon and the KG found in the FW-190A8 is not the same KG as found in the FW-190A3.

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: March 06, 2005, 10:22:35 PM by Crumpp »
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Offline Kurfürst

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #280 on: March 07, 2005, 05:58:01 AM »
That`s Meyer, thanks for posting. Crumpp, you should really take this post into account, schwarze mann is the one responisble for the restored G-10`s engine of the Mtt Stiftung.. he knows his way around old engines.

Btw, what was the difference between the early and late KG systems, the NACA report and also the USN notes things like malfunctioning due to loosing oil pressure. Were only the child diseases cured, or there were other changes as well?
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Offline Crumpp

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #281 on: March 07, 2005, 06:55:13 AM »
Accoding to Gosshawk (Yellow 10) and Bendix, the 213's KG and the BMW KG were the same thing made by the same company (Bendix). The one that rebuilt ours at White 1.

Do you understand that the company that built the KG states they are the exact same thing?

If Schwarzeman works for Motobende then I know of him.  

http://www.motobende.de/

The KG was constantly improved upon.  After Kurt Tank had a 190 get thrown into a spin at the top of a loop because the KG changed supercharger gearing violently at low speed, he told BMW to get it right or get it out.

The KG that goes on the 213 is the exact same device as is found on the FW-190A8/A9.  Only difference is the mechanical interface vs hydraulic switches.  In fact the hydraulic switches were developed for the FW-190A10 program that eliminated the electrical motors for hydraulics.

The DB system is not the same thing.  It did not tie everything together under one engine management system.  Some of its subcomponents performed similar function independently of each other.  Many of those subcomponents are the same exact parts that can be found in the Kommandogerat.

Crumpp
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Offline Kurfürst

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #282 on: March 07, 2005, 07:07:25 AM »
Crumpp, what are you using as a reference for the engine management systen of the DB ?
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Offline pasoleati

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #283 on: March 07, 2005, 09:55:06 AM »
DB system worked OK and it did provide single lever control like the KG did. There is no reason to argue on details here as their meaning is nil.

DB´s greatest fault lies in its poor overspeed limit, i.e. the difference between max usable rpm (i.e. Start-und-Notleistung) and max allowed rpm, 2856 rpm. That is only 2 %, when e.g. the Merlin was cleared for 20% overspeeding (3000 rpm TO/3600 rpm max allowed). This coupled with VDM prop´s slow pitch changing, no good.

Kurfurst, DB mixture control senses atmospherical pressure, manifold pressure and manifold air temperature (not outside air temp).
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Offline Charge

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #284 on: March 08, 2005, 06:26:12 AM »
So, it the DB had a poor overspeed limit and the propellor was slow to adjust they probabaly broke up many engines with that kind of combination?

-C+
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