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Author Topic: The enigma of the Bf-109  (Read 9700 times)

Offline MANDO

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2005, 05:59:17 PM »
The Fw190 had very light controls at most speeds, and the electrical tailplane trimming (+-5 degrees max.) was in most cases a "risk" more than a help. It seems that with maximum tailplane up trim it was very easy to stall the plane with "light" joy pulls.
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Offline Charge

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2005, 06:55:46 PM »
"Now Willy was a good designer, it boggles me why he skipped this one. "

Maybe it wasn't a real issue?

-C+
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Offline Naudet

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2005, 02:22:06 AM »
Quote
This 'it was no problem on the 190, but on the 109, which followed the exact same layout, the same phenomenon was an extreme disadvantage' just stinks of bias.


Kurfürst i find it rather funny that you mention something like "stinks of bias" when the facts don't support your claims.

The Bf109 was troubled due to the need of constant rudder input when not flying at cruise speed, which the FW190 was not, that is well documented.
Did this prevent the Bf109 from being a good and effective fighter, surely not, otherwise it would not have been around till 1945.
But contrary to your oppinion the Bf109 was not a miraculous design without any flaws.
And read my post again, were do i say it is an extreme disadvantage for the Bf109, i don't do that.

Btw that the trimming system of both airplanes followed the same pattern is no wonder, because it was german design philosophy at that time that 1-engined fighter planes did not require inflight ajustable trim tabs around all axis.  
This should also answer Angus question about trimming on other german planes.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2005, 02:25:29 AM by Naudet »
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Offline Glasses

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2005, 03:25:10 AM »
OMG Naudet you're alive :D

For the Love of Kurt Tank! ....wait ...ah yes sorry
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Offline Naudet

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2005, 03:56:58 AM »
LOL Glassess, were have you been? I am around in AH2 for over 4 weeks now, i am a member of 9./JG54 and you didn't noticed it yet??

I think the questions is not if i am alive, but if you are. ;) :D
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Offline Angus

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2005, 09:46:19 AM »
Hehe, nice to know that you BOTH are still kicking.

Emm, which team do you fly for?
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Glasses

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2005, 01:14:15 PM »
I'm on throtorial leavewaitin for my throttle to arrive then I shall come back and send the foul spits back to the hells from whence they came.  Smite them I shall with my heilige Rhinemetal borsig minengeschoss of truth and justice!
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Offline Kurfürst

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #52 on: February 16, 2005, 07:07:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Naudet
The Bf109 was troubled due to the need of constant rudder input when not flying at cruise speed, which the FW190 was not, that is well documented.
[/B]

You merely repeat yourself, that`s not convincing. Documented..? What is documented, a physical nonsense that a plane doesn`t require any trimming? An unrepeated marvel of aircraft design ever since?


Quote

Did this prevent the Bf109 from being a good and effective fighter, surely not, otherwise it would not have been around till 1945.
[/B]

Yep yep.

Quote

But contrary to your oppinion the Bf109 was not a miraculous design without any flaws.
[/B]

That`s not contrary to my opinion, because my opinion is not that it`s a 'miraculous design without any flaws'. I`d say it was the fighter with the most dynamic flight envelopes (speed characteristics vs. altitude and manouveribility in the vertical/horizontal plane) of it`s time, though.

In the future, please spend the time - which now you use telling what my opinion is (and note, that is my exclusive privilage) -  for backing up your statements better.



Quote

Btw that the trimming system of both airplanes followed the same pattern is no wonder, because it was german design philosophy at that time that 1-engined fighter planes did not require inflight ajustable trim tabs around all axis.  
This should also answer Angus question about trimming on other german planes. [/B]


Yep, that`s why I am interested in how would a plane with the same design pattern would make one plane free of to an aspect directly relating to that design pattern. I don`t know any other design aspect of the 190 that would make trim free. The much greater torque of the BMW 801 was certainly not one of them. And it`s torque and slipstream causes directional instability.
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The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site
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Offline MiloMorai

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2005, 08:07:06 AM »
Some guy, on another BBS, claims the 109 would overheat at high speed while flying level. Only in climb because of the slow speed could the 'boost juices' be used without causing overheating. The radiators were not efficient enough. He also says the boundary layer seperator in the rad was not that good either.

He goes on and claims the P-51 could fly at high speed almost indefinately.



Barbi if you were not so blinded by your tunnel vision for the 109, you will find that the 190 was well known for the lack of trimming required in flight from take off to landing.
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Offline humble

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2005, 10:39:18 AM »
Interesting thread.....

A couple of points seem to be missing.....

1st the 109 was much harder to fly than the spitfire or mustang, this severely hurt the "average" pilot. It did however maintain a significant advantage in the vertical thruout the war vs its primary opponents (at least up to the tempest/spitXIV). Since the germans favored slash and run tactics it was still very competitive when properly utilized....

However, when you consider the fact that over 5% of all luftwaffe fighter deaths can be contributed to simply trying to land the plane (109) it hight lights just how pitiful the bird really was...when you consider that the guy who flew the air scenes in Saving Private Ryan died roughly two weeks after filming landing a 109 in clear skys on a windless day with no mechanical issues it makes it clear the plane is still a handful.

Bottom line is simple, its a below average plane overall flown by brave men with no real other choice. 99 out of a hundred of em would of rather had a pony,tempest,la-7 etc....
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Offline MANDO

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2005, 11:50:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
However, when you consider the fact that over 5% of all luftwaffe fighter deaths can be contributed to simply trying to land the plane (109)


:eek: Do you know how many deaths are 5% of total 109 deaths along the war? 109 would be considered a suicide machine.
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Offline humble

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2005, 01:47:19 PM »
It's a documented fact mando....this was a very very dangerous plane to fly.
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Offline HoHun

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #57 on: February 16, 2005, 02:30:45 PM »
Hi Humble,

>A couple of points seem to be missing.....

Yes, proof for your claims.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
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Offline humble

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #58 on: February 16, 2005, 02:47:45 PM »
I've read that specific comment (regarding landing) from two different sources. The 109 was an unforgiving plane and beyond the capabilities of the baby seals flying it from 43 on as primary training was cut further and further.

As for the general comment, its easy to read between the lines in any number of memoirs. Remember in 43 there was a strong push to ditch the 109 for the C205 which the germans considered to be a far superior  plane overall...politics and the impracticality of reengineering the production lines stopped it but the 109 was/is a dog compared to its contemporaries (handling, ease of flight...not performance wise). By late 43 it was easily the worst frontline fighter fielded by any major power with regard to everything but its performance numbers.
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Offline HoHun

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #59 on: February 16, 2005, 02:52:25 PM »
Hi Humble,

>I've read that specific comment (regarding landing) from two different sources.

Which sources?

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
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