303 damage... just a myth?

[Howitzer]

I dedicated last night to the flight of the spit V (although I cheated and made a jug run).  Anyway, I will normally open with hispanos when I get a good solution on an enemy.  But, after a few kills I'm out of hispanos, and left with my lowly 303s.  So, I decided to see if I couldn't get a few more with the BBs.  So I found me a 109G6 (I know it was a G6 because I was so close I could have spit on him) and I followed him around pelting him furiously with my little 303s.  Tons and tons of hit sprites, and I see and aileron fall off.  So I think that he HAS to be weak by now, and I keep firing... sprites everywhere again and I see a fuel leak.  Rinse, repeat... and I get an oil leak.  Finally a teammate swoops down and finishes him.  

Now I know the 303s are weak, but I'm seeing serious amounts of hits with them and very little to no damage at all inflicted.  I heard guys swear by these guns in the battle of britain... but in AH2 they seem pretty much worthless.  Any of you spit gurus out there give your thoughts on this?  Leviathn, Redtop, morpheus, Guppy, wldthng... anyone?  Just seems weak to me.

Happy furballing..

[lasersailor184]

If you are getting hit sprites all over, then you aren't aiming well enough.

You pretty much need to sit at convergence distance and focus the shots on one spot.

[SuperDud]

I had the same situation when a La7 tried to turn fight me in a spit5. I did a little experiment of my own and only used BB's. After MANY hits to the tail area it finally gave. I would have to say in a practical use once you're outta cannons it's time to rtb. I also think the 303's should have more kick to them. The amount of rounds I put on that La7 was insane and I doubt in RL an airframe structure could of held up.

[Guppy35]

If you ever get a chance to watch Levi, he's still killing em long after his 20mm is gone.

That being said, a B of B Spit I had 8 303s and you can see photos of German aircraft just peppered all over with 303 holes.

I imagine it has to do with being able to have all those 303s hitting at the same point instead of all over as lasersailor pointed out.  And with a Spit V or IX you are down to 4 303s not the 8 of the B of B Spits, so it's half the hitting power.

Despite Douglas Bader not liking them, the RAF added the cannons for a reason.  They needed more hitting power as the 303 really wasn't getting the job done as effectively as a couple of 20mm could.

And there were a number of Spit drivers who had the 303s removed to save weight in hopes of increasing performance as they didn't see the need for them with the 20mms.

Dan/Slack

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by Howitzer
Just seems weak to me.

I don't have any experience with 4x.303, but I do have a fair amount with the eight-gun hurris and spits.  I've noticed that range causes a huge difference in lethality.  If you synchronize your guns to converge at 200 yards, and take no shot beyond about 150, the .303s can really chop up most planes.  Longer range, and about the best you can hope for is what you described, along with the possible pilot wound.

The other thing is that you really need to have your guns on target for a full second or so.  Snap shots with .303s aren't going to get you any further than long-distance shots do.  The net result is that you have to get close on the target's tail and stay there.

Speaking of which:  Note that the CT will have Battle of Britain starting tomorrow.  Come fly some classics.

- oldman

[Mister Fork]

In a word lads: convergence.

If you have your 303's set to 250 or greater, and you're engaging a target in less than 150, your convergence is going to the size of a barn door.

Set it to 100-150, and you'll knock parts off in a hurry.

Amatures.

[Howitzer]

Exactly why I posted this.  I will try and change my convergence settings a bit.  Maybe I can get more coordinated hits that do more damage.

Thanks!

[StarOfAfrica2]

Really, it doesnt matter so much WHERE you convergence is, as much as making sure you are close to that range when you fire.  I keep mine at 200 for .303s.  Yes they have lots of energy and will fly farther out, but why waste that energy in flight?  I know when that range counter hits 200 it's time.  The 8 gun Spit MkI and Hurricane MkI will easily take a wing or tail section off at d200 with a 2-3 second burst.  The 4 gun MkV and MkIX versions should still do significant damage with just the .303's if you stay at convergence range.  

Just think of your convergence triangle as a knife blade, and the closer to the tip you are the sharper the blade is.  

AFAIK Bader didnt like the 20mm when they first came out because the originals were clip fed beasts that jammed after one or two shots and left them without half their MG's (due to lack of room in the wing, they had a clip feed and the gun was laid sideways......they never did have a good feed for any orientation but up and down).  Also, the rather flexible Spitfire wings didnt take the recoil all that well, which also messed up the aim, and didnt help the jamming problem.  Once they changed the wings to accomodate the 20's properly, and got rid of the clip feeds, the reliability improved and the resistance to them dropped.

[debuman]

Although I realize its all the rage to badmouth SHANE on this BBS, he did help me out with this exact problem in the CT one night.  I asked him how he was getting kills with the spit and hurri, and he said to set convergence at 150-200, and only shoot when very close.  After that, on the rare occasion when I could get that close to an enemy, they would do the trick.

[Dead Man Flying]

The .303s in the Spit V are good for at least two to four more kills once the 20mm run out -- and that's if you consider that I fire both the .303s and the 20mm at the same time.  So if you just fire 20mm and conserve .303s until the end, you'll have even more at your disposal.

The key, as mentioned, is convergence.  I set mine to 225.  Keep it in close, fire close, and fire at the same spot.  Peppering the enemy won't do it... you could go through 1400 rounds of .303 and never even damage someone if those rounds all hit in different places.  I try to aim for the cockpit or wingroots.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Really, it doesnt matter so much WHERE you convergence is, as much as making sure you are close to that range when you fire.  I keep mine at 200 for .303s.  Yes they have lots of energy and will fly farther out, but why waste that energy in flight?  I know when that range counter hits 200 it's time.  The 8 gun Spit MkI and Hurricane MkI will easily take a wing or tail section off at d200 with a 2-3 second burst.  The 4 gun MkV and MkIX versions should still do significant damage with just the .303's if you stay at convergence range.  

Just think of your convergence triangle as a knife blade, and the closer to the tip you are the sharper the blade is.  

AFAIK Bader didnt like the 20mm when they first came out because the originals were clip fed beasts that jammed after one or two shots and left them without half their MG's (due to lack of room in the wing, they had a clip feed and the gun was laid sideways......they never did have a good feed for any orientation but up and down).  Also, the rather flexible Spitfire wings didnt take the recoil all that well, which also messed up the aim, and didnt help the jamming problem.  Once they changed the wings to accomodate the 20's properly, and got rid of the clip feeds, the reliability improved and the resistance to them dropped.

Bader never went to cannon.  He thought it made pilots shoot from too far out etc.

You are correct in that the first 20mm equipped Spits had problems with jamming with the way the cannons were installed. Those were Spit Is that were tested with 19 squadron among others during the B of B

Dan/Slack

[nirvana]

I read somewhere .303s were there to cause a pilot wound mostly then when the pilot was knocked out the plane would go down.  Not sure where I read this but it seems like a plan given that when I take the hurri 1 up I can usually give someone a pilot would rather easily.  Me and Spade tested this one night.  He lost a lot of blood.

[Overlag]

AH2 doesnt simulate broken control lines etc.

[lasersailor184]

Oh!  We definately need that then.

I love sniping with the Yak 9k with the single .50 and take out the control lines.

[tactic]

ya sure know when those 303's are hittn ya,  sounds like someone spitting sunflower seeds at your plane!....