Help me understand something

[Guppy35]

Not whining, but curious as to how they did it.

Twice yesterday I dove down into a fight to try and get a mob off a low good guy.  I was in a 38G and was a the point where I was almost compressing, so I was moving.  Controls are stiff, plane is rattling etc.

Both times I had bad guys lower, coming up at me.  Both times they passed under my right wing and as I watched them I went lower still trying to get the mob and they pulled up and reversed.  Both times they stopped 800 out at the top of their climb and reverse and then were accellerating and gaining on me.

The first guy was an LA5, the next was a Spit.  Couldn't tell if it was a V or an IX.

How did they accellerate that fast?  

Just seemed wierd that they caught me that fast even though they were lower and going the other direction.

It also could be that I just suck that bad

Dan/Slack

[g00b]

Chances are they were hauling bellybutton to begin with. The LA5 and Spit can both cut tight manuevers without losing much E. When the film viewer works again you should record ALL of your flights and go back and learn from them.

g00b

[killnu]

they may have been turning prior to passing you as well, lead turn kinda.

[Schutt]

Probably your P38 rattled and shaked because of a broken piston and you had a lame engine? No?

Sorry.. but sounds impossible to me. Hope you get a film next time i want to see that.

Maybe you want to go to TA and try it out, what altitude did they follow you?
Did they have a chance to dive after the reverse to accelerate?
If you find me online im game for that.

[Tjay]

Guppy, I sympathise. There is an elite group of pilots in this games (elite may not be the right word) who are so skilled they can turn their planes around like doing a handbrake turn in a car  and come after you without losing any of their energy. And it doesn't matter how fast you are going because they will overhaul you real quick.

The other night I was heading home in a P51, full throttle at 10k with no ammo and light fuel. Out of the corner of my eye I see a dot in my low 4 o'c on the same heading and moving really fast. No problem 'cos he may have speed down there but he has to use it to get up to where I am, doesn't he. Then the dot turns into an icon (N1k1 of course) and he is coming up behind me so fast his range numbers are a blur. I am so mesmerised by this that I forget to take evasive action. At 900yds his guns flicker once and I am history.

Who was it? Just let's say he never flies any other plane is usually very very close to the top of the fighter ladder.

[Howitzer]

I've been surprised a few times, and that N1k example is a good one.  Some of those guys know how to turn that plane into a UFO.  I have never really been "surprised" by the spit V accelleration, but they can be crafty little planes in the right hands.

I do know how you feel though Dan...  hope you find the answer you are looking for.  

[Karnak]

Well Tjay, I'll guarantee it wasn't an N1K1 Kyofu "Rex", nor even an N1K1-J Shiden "George".

Maybe an N1K2-J Shiden-Kai "George 21".  


To those who see these things, please, please turn your film on and send it to HTC.  Nothing else matters in regards to this.

[SunKing]

Originally posted by Tjay
Guppy, I sympathise. There is an elite group of pilots in this games (elite may not be the right word) who are so skilled they can turn their planes around like doing a handbrake turn in a car  and come after you without losing any of their energy. And it doesn't matter how fast you are going because they will overhaul you real quick.

 

They turn before the engangement as you blow by. Most players turn AFTER the engangment , that's how you get on someones 6 fast and get these resulting threads.

[Guppy35]

The only thing that makes me wonder is that they were on the tail of another guy I was trying to help.  They were the earliest to break away as no doubt they got the call I was coming down.

So they had straightened out as they head for me at a lower alt and slightly climbing.  we crossed alts with them going up and me going down after I passed them.

I'd watched them both and they were nose high and I remember being struck by how they stopped at 800 out nose high in their reversal and then accellerated.

Not implying anything about the guys flying those birds btw.  Just amazed at how fast they reversed, accellerated and caught me despite me having the head start, alt and E.

I did get the bad guys to break off the good guy I was trying to help anyway so it wasn't all bad

Dan/Slack

[nirvana]

This happens all too often to me so I know how you feel its like they are on a ball that they can immediately flip onto your 6 after climbing up and then have plenty of E to catch you its disgusting as my squaddie would say

[stantond]

Guppy35,

What you experienced was energy loss and transfer in action.  

As you were maxed out in speed at 394(?) mph diving from 8k to 4k (for example) you were 'blowing' a significant amount of energy.  Even a P51 that will peak at 500+ mph will be losing energy in that dive situation.   The La5 (which is a very fast plane, and has excellent acceleration) and the spit were both fast, which is the equivalent of having more energy than they look like they do.

A lead turn when pulling g's in the vertical at lower speeds minimizes energy loss in a reversal.  Both planes have excellent acceleration, so 'matching' your energy state was relatively easy for those planes. Even the venerable F4u-1, which can't accelerate without being in a dive could perform the manuever you describe the LA5 and Spit doing provided it's speed was ~ 330 ias.  

Diving into a furball, or diving to attack any plane blows your energy and puts you at risk.  A less risky approach is to only dive when the enemy is not going to make you reach maximum speed while losing altitude.  However, where's the fun in that?

Regards,

Malta

[Tjay]

I have to disagree with those who say the whole thing is explained by an early lead turn - or that an La 5 or Spit could do a 180 degree reversal and then accelerate to 400+ in the space of 800yds.

Yes, Guppy was blowing his energy in the dive, but that is IMHO irrelevant. He was going one way at say 400mph, the others were going the other way - and nose high with it.  

If they were fast they could not have done a 'tight 'n quick' lead turn because they would have blacked out. And a high speed/high G 180 is going to drag their speed down considerably.

If they were slow, they could turn around a lot quicker. But a 180 turn at corner speed - lets be real generous and say 25 deg/sec at 200mph takes approx 7sec. Let's suppose they time their turn perfectly and come out heading the same way as the P38 right abeam him. The P38 is now leaving its pursuers behind at the rate of 98yds every second. That will decrease as the pursuers accelerate, of course.

You don't need to do the math to see that a La5 or Spit can not possible accelerate and catch another aircraft doing 400mph in just the few seconds we are talking about.

As for my own experience, a N1k2 (agreed) has only so much kinetic energy when flat out on the deck. That is not enough to allow it to zoom climb through 10k and arrive at 300mph plus.

If anyone can dispute the above with proper physics and math, I'm all ears 'cos I wan't to learn how to do it too.

[StarOfAfrica2]

Originally posted by Guppy35
Not whining, but curious as to how they did it.

Twice yesterday I dove down into a fight to try and get a mob off a low good guy.  I was in a 38G and was a the point where I was almost compressing, so I was moving.  Controls are stiff, plane is rattling etc.

Both times I had bad guys lower, coming up at me.  Both times they passed under my right wing and as I watched them I went lower still trying to get the mob and they pulled up and reversed.  Both times they stopped 800 out at the top of their climb and reverse and then were accellerating and gaining on me.

The first guy was an LA5, the next was a Spit.  Couldn't tell if it was a V or an IX.

How did they accellerate that fast?  

Just seemed wierd that they caught me that fast even though they were lower and going the other direction.

It also could be that I just suck that bad

Dan/Slack

Hehe, I did a 12k dive to the deck the other night to try to hit a spit on the tail of a friendly.  I got my Yak up to 600 mph TAS.  Yes, 600mph.  Part of me just wanted to see if it would go that fast, I've never had anything but a Pony hold up over 500 before.  I started applying back pressure on the stick and levelled it out at about 1500 feet, lining up on the Spit, when another Spit that was hovering at about 5k when I blew by him managed to catch up to me and shot me down.  When I levelled out I was still well over 500mph TAS.  How the heck did a Spit catch me in that short a distance and close to firing range?  I just laughed.  Its a game after all.  But I want one of those interceptor packs!  

[mechanic]

even if the spit was a mkIX it could have been cruising around 300mph  at 5k.

suppose he was going 380-400mph from a sustained long dive from 8k or so.

he follows you with perfect precision and gains his absolute top speed (before compression and break up) of around 480, there is still no way he should catch you at 500-600mph.

i dont need to do any maths or physics to work that out.

strange.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by mechanic
even if the spit was a mkIX it could have been cruising around 300mph  at 5k.

suppose he was going 380-400mph from a sustained long dive from 8k or so.

he follows you with perfect precision and gains his absolute top speed (before compression and break up) of around 480, there is still no way he should catch you at 500-600mph.

i dont need to do any maths or physics to work that out.

strange.

A few days ago I rolled in after a diving N1K2. I was flying an F4U. Diving at 575 mph, the N1K2 was pulling away. He was out of icon range in about 30 seconds..... That's not possible unless there is a bug of some kind and it's being exploited. I wasn't running film due the the player being porked.

My regards,

Widewing