Low Angle of Attack Turns

[Minotaur]

(This is going to be long)

I have had to keep wondering why I am always running out of E and my opponents often are not.  Basically, after RWY handed me my head 8 times in a row in the TA and a player named "Starry" did the same to me in the MA. <S>

WHY? I ran out of E, faster than they did....

I came to conclusion that it was my flying style and more importantly what burned E so fast.  Mostly I use high AoA turns.

I am no real pilot, any one who is jplease ump in here.

AoA is the difference in angle between the flow of air striking the wing and the angle that the wing is tilted.  To simplify AoA, it compares two vectors.

• Flight path direction = The direction the A/C is moving
• Flight path orientation = The direction the A/C is pointed

To understand, fly in level flight.  Pull back on the stick.  Initially the A/C remains in level flight, but tilts upward.  You have now created an AoA.  This causes the A/C to go up.

AoA is very good for turning, that is the method most used to to do so.  However AoA or excessive AoA is very bad for two reasons.

• Causes E loss --> the greater the AoA the greater the rate of E loss
• Causes the A/C to stop flying --> resulting in spin out

So now ask yourself, "Self, how do I turn with out using AoA or minimizing it?"   RWY and Starry know, they use vertical turns.

LOL    Doh....

This is like someone answering your question of "How do I make babies?" with an answer of "A male and a female have intercourse."  It is an answer, but does not help you to really understand a darn thing.

Read on....

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Hind tit suckin whiners. Begone with yah!"
Hangtime

[Minotaur]

OK...

On the subject of high AoA and spin out.

Spin out occurs for one main reason:

The AoA is too high for a given speed

Keep in mind that you most often generate high AoA by pulling the stick too far back.  If the speed you are going is not fast enough for the AoA you are generating, you will spin out.  This is most often bad.

To illustrate spin out I posting this film.  Turn on the trace lines and use the "Fixed View" (default F5).

When watch the film, when I get to the top of my turn press the keypad minus key a couple of times to slow down the action.

What you need to notice is how the tail of the A/C really gets out of alignment with the trace lines.  I am really really slow (50mph) and have a very high AoA.

Now notice how hard I struggle to get out of that spin. I smacked the ground in the end, but look at my orientation during the spin.  How much out of alignment the tail of the A/C an the trace lines are.  The AoA stayed high and the A/C would not fly.   Boom!  

Read on....  

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Hind tit suckin whiners. Begone with yah!"
Hangtime

[Minotaur]

This film illustrates one vertical low AoA turn.  I believe it is much like the one Starry used on me.  

Keep in mind the only time I used WEP was during my spin recoveries (2) and then only briefly.  Basically, I made many turns and GAINED E the entire time.  Near the end of the film, I was forced you use some E scrubbing maneuvers in order to slow down for my shots.  I was just going to fast for any degree of maneuverability.

Read on...

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Hind tit suckin whiners. Begone with yah!"
Hangtime

[Lephturn]

Hmmm.  To keep from stalling, don't pull so deep into the stall horn.  It gives you plenty of warning.  I think you are pulling into a "mush", or into what in sailing we would call "pinching".  It means that although you haven't actually stalled yet, you are close enough that the disturbed airflow is costing you performance.  The airfoil is not working optimally, even though you haven't quite spun it out yet.  You need to be backing off before the stall horn is as loud.  It's a trickly line, I just think you are stepping a bit too far over it.  

As for why a vertical fighter will beat somebody flat turning, if you mostly flat turn and pull hard:

You pull more G's.  You turn flat more.  You make most of your direction changes by pulling the stick back.  Pulling the stick back means pulling G's, and the G meter is a "how fast am I burning E" meter practically speaking.  Look at it this way, if you are flying level at 1G and it takes you X ammount of energy to fly, think how much energy it would take to keep a plane that weighs 3 times as much flying at that speed.  When you pull G's, that's the effect.  Now it's way more complicated of course, but using the G meter as a guide to how much E you are buring works well.

If you use the vertical, you will burn less E.  One of the main reasons is that the closer to vertical you are, the more you can roll INSTEAD of turning.  For every direction change you can make by rolling, you gain E on the other guy if he is "turning", or changing direction by pulling on the stick.  So if I am using a loop while you flat turn, on the up or down sections of that loop, I can get "free" direction changes by rolling my aircraft.  I will burn less E and still "out turn" a "better turning" aircraft.  

The second half of this equation is patience and using lag.  If I'm fighting you and you are pulling HARD for the shot the entire time, I may be able to use that.  If you are pushing that hard, you may be riding the edge of a stall, and the plane is not performing 100%, just mushing out but still not departing controlled flight.  If I use the vertical, I may be able to use more gentle turns and pull less G's.  I also will NOT fly into lead right away, I'll drop back in lag and try to be smooth, building E.  If I can sit in lag pursuit and build up a bit of an E cushion, I can then plan a shot.  Normally I'll use some vertical move to get close then BURN IT ALL for one shot.  I'll pop some flap and haul that sucker around HARD to get lead.  The trick is I have to make the shot or I am in deep d'oh.

Now, a lot of this depends on what plane you fly.  I fly the Jug, so I NEED to rely on this type of knife-fighting.  If you fly a Zeke, you can get away with pulling harder than the others.

Mino, try a Zeke or a Spit V buddy.  If you are a "pull the stick to your guts and hold it" type of flier, you need to fly a plane that will be best suited to that type of flying.  You still need to try to use the vertical more and use roll, but generally in a better turning plane you want to keep pulling hard to put the pressure on the other guy so if he blows it, you're on his six pronto.

If you want to force yourself to learn the vertical, there is a simple way.  Force yourself to fly a plane that can't do anything else worth a damn. <G>  When you go back to a better turning plane, you will be blown away at how much better a pilot it will have made you.  Try flying the P47-D30 for a tour and stay below 15k. <G>  Sure, you'll die alot, but you'll learn a bunch too.

You want to know what is THE most dangerous pilot in the arena?  It's somebody in a "turnfighter" like the Spit that flies it BnZ and only uses the turning capabilities when he's in trouble.  Garner comes to mind.    Learn the vertical knife fight, you'll be glad you did.

Use the vertical, Luke.
You must unlearn what you have learned.  

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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com
 

"My P-47 is a pretty good ship, she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip.
Just thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip, always got me through so far."
 - Steve Earl

[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 11-06-2000).]

[Minotaur]

To perform this turn you need to be focus on 3 things:

• Airspeed --> IAS
• The sun --> reference for vertical positioning
• The horizon --> reference for wings level and wings at 90 degrees

Procedure:

• IAS 300mph level flight (200ph is minimum entry)
• Pull into a 60-75 degree vertical zoom climb
• If entry is from a dive check wings level using the blue staggered horizon lines as you pass the horizon and correct as needed using aileron
• At 250mph pull up elevator until the sun is centered just above the gunsight
• Apply slight left rudder and slight left aileron to position the nose just under and left of the sun
• Key Do not left the nose go above or to the right of the sun at any time during this maneuver
  
• At 200mph feed more and more left rudder
• Key Simultaneously start feeding down elevator and right aileron  -->  the idea is to keep the nose left and below the sun
  
• 150 mph be at max left rudder, maintaining right right aileron and down elevator --> let it start to slide off the sun to the left and down in a very slow manner
• Key100mph ease off the rudder till it is in the neutral position, maintain right aileron and down elevator --> at this point you are in limbo
  
• The A/C will now start to fall off the sun nose down, essentially pivoting on the left wing tip
• Key Notice the blue staggered horizon lines slowly climbing up the left wing --> crossing it at a 90 degree angle
  
• KeyAt 50mph the nose will drop down rapidly in a whipping motion --> DO NOT APPLY ANY RUDDER and feather a slight right aileron and maintain push on down elevator

Any rudder or up elevator control at this time will result in spin out.  This is a critical stage of this turn.

• Key Keep pushing the nose down using down elevator
  
• Correct any generated spin by small amounts of counter aileron (usually right aileron) --> maintain applied down elevator
• The stall warning buzzer might buzz a few times, but don't panic
• The nose will pretty much point straight down on its own
• At 130mph you are out of the woods, and can start easing in rudder control
• At 150mph orientate to your target and pull away

Good Luck and Have Fun!  


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Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Hind tit suckin whiners. Begone with yah!"
Hangtime

[Soulyss]

Nice post Lephturn, I find I periodically have to "go back to school" to eliminate bad habits I tend to pick up.    Flying a BnZ fighter then going back to a angles fighter will make someone really nasty really quick.  Reminds of somthing Sox told me once, "there's nothing more dangerous than a P51 pilot in a spitfire."  

[humble]

Mino...RWY is probably in a very small select group 1 on 1...I'm constantly amazed by how he wrings that little bit extra out of his ride...especially pony. Great tips on vertical turn.

[flakbait]

For me, posts like this are a gold mine. The web site I run contains a lot of info on various subjects. This is not one of them. Here's what I know, and if I get something wrong do correct me.

Flying style is rarely variable for your average pilot. Most people find something that works and run with it. I did when I found how efective a Bf-109 G6 can be. After flying it a bit, I switched to an F4U-1D to see the difference. Astonishingly enough, there's isn't much. Roll rate is much better, but in pitch they're nearly the same. Kills in the F4U are similar to kills in a 109. It's smart to energy fight with both aircraft, and they have a respectable weapons load.

One thing I have noticed, with my own flying, is that you better know a little of everything. I rarely did anything except dive on a target; more often than not I'd get spotted. One turn and he would blow my entire pass. So I started thinking of ways to get around that problem and found an old trick. Galland was in love with the dive and zoom tactic, but did something extra. I kept trying for top shots, which nearly always failed.

Instead of going for top shots, I dove under the target then came up. Sometimes it worked, other times he turned and I'd have to climb. I kept working on it until I finally found something that worked. Ever run across a street with no cross-walk? I'm serious, have you? Ever notice you can start running across before the car gets there and still be safe? I did. That was my fix. Instead of aiming behind my target, I aimed ahead of him. In this way I could drop nearly on top of the guy, averaging 350 yards distance after I leveled off.

I still use that tactic, along with stall-fighting tricks. In turn fighting I see the same problem I had; you can turn great but rarely have any speed. I helped a guy with this in the TA a while back. He was constantly running out of speed while flying a 109. I couldn't imagine how he could do this, since a 109 can keep speed the way a bank holds money. Finally I got him to dive on me, and asked him to tell me his highest speed. 340mph is what he told me.

I found his problem; he wasn't flying in trim combined with a lack of throttle authority. In short, he didn't trim the plane and rarely floored it. On top of this, he turned constantly and never flew in a straight line. After 20 minutes, I told him to floor it and dive on a guy we had playing target. His peak speed was 440mph, but he missed the target. I followed up with what I call a "Yak snapshot" and killed the target. His gunnery wasn't bad, but he was still having trouble keeping speed. Trim! Needless to say, he finally got it and was killing the target on a first-pass basis.

Speed is life, but altitude is life insurance. An old saying, but it's true. If your style is more towards turning, study dive and zoom tactics. This can help you gain speed at bad moments. Some good notes I use are:

1) When vertical, never let your speed drop below 200mph. Raise the deck speed as your altitude increases.

2) Don't go vertical after a higher opponent. Odds are you'll just give him a stationary target, since your speed will rarely hold out long enough to come around.

3) When turning hard, watch your decent rate and speed. If either drops below a personal base, stop.

Do excuse me if I strayed. Once I get an idea I run all over the place with it.



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Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School
"My art is the wings of an aircraft through the skies, my music the deep hum of a prop as it slices the air, my thrill the thunder of guns tearing asunder an enemy plane."
Flakbait
19 September 2000

[Lephturn]

This is a great discussion thread.  

BTW, the manuever Mino talked us through up there is basically a hammerhead turn.  It can be very useful in the right hands, but it is VERY dangerous.  When you do this move, you basically hang on your prop almost stationary for many seconds.  This will only work if you have judged the other fellow's E state properly.  If he can get within guns range while you are hanging there, you are dead.  The other danger is other pilots.  If you do a hammerhead and there are any other enemy planes around, you are dogmeat.  A BnZ pilot booming through a furball looks for slow targets he can waste easily.  If there are any co-e or higher bad guys around, you are meat on the table doing this move.

Also remember, that lag plays a factor.  If you are hanging on your prop while the enemy zooms up under you to try for a shot, he will ALWAYS look farther away than he is on his FE.  This means that he may zoom up and kill you at anything under 1k of range.  You WILL DIE learning to use the hammerhead effectively.  You will misjudge the enemy's E state and get eaten lots.  You will be surprised by fast-accellerating planes like the N1k and the 109 who zoom up and eat you when you don't think they can.

On the positive side, it is a great way to learn how to judge E states.    In a 1v1 situation it can be a great move if you have enough E advantage.  If done right, it is the ultimate rope-a-dope move.  If the lower E fellow tries to zoom up with you, when you flip over he should be wallowing below you like a big fat target.

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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com


"My P-47 is a pretty good ship, she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip.
Just thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip, always got me through so far."
 - Steve Earl

[SKurj]

The Hammerhead is a great move for ground attack as well.  Dive in for your first pass, after your drop or rocket launch pull up using as few G as you can and zoom into the vertical using negative gees toward the peak of your zoom to maximize your altitude.  Then proceed through the hammerhead and come back down into a dive on your target for another pass.  I basically use this move 90% of the time when attacking Vbases and vehicles.  (tho against the ostwind sometimes a spiral climb is more desirable)
Against the Panzer this move keeps you typically overhead and out of the arc of fire of his turret MG.
For Vbases, done properly, the first pass takes out both ack with rox, and the second pass takes down the hangar. Continue making passes until its all down.

SKurj

[flakbait]

Minor explination on my part. Some of this is taken from a page I'm doing on the Yak:

YAK SNAP-SHOT

• You MUST start with an altitude advantage before attempting this! I developed this variation on the normal dive and zoom.

Ok, here goes. Start with an altitude advantage you typically use before a dive and zoom maneuver. Start your dive from no less than 45º and no greater than 60º. Your aim point is just beyond the enemy aircraft. Once within 1.2k, begin a shallow pull up until his spinner touches yours. Then cut loose with everything you've got. What happens is kinda hard to explain, so bare with me.

Shooting is the Yak is the same as shooting in a Bf-109. The guns are in the same place,
it is easy to aim, and you don't have to worry about gun convergence much. I've tried a few tactics to get kills, but the old stand-by of diving in from altitude and pounding your target works just fine. Kills are easy to get this way. Another wonderful move I found was a sharp climbing tuck. Instead of putting the nose down, banking to the right and pulling through a Tuck, climb then bank and pull it over the top. After all top shots are the easy road to fast kills. When shooting from above you have a larger target, have more vulnerable parts exposed to your guns, and you can simply dive away from him after attacking.

By pulling up just a tad you place him under your nose slightly. This requires better SA than the average idiot, and if you don't have it you won't see him turn. You open up just when his spinner touches yours at around 400 yards. Closure rate should be a little fast, but I prefer to really slam rounds into a guy. Typically, I'll let loose at 550 yards and keep pounding through 300. Once I'm there, I shoot everything while aiming for his nose. I can't miss. If you shoot a bit
short you'll hit his cockpit or tail section, but if you are dead on you'll blow his engine. Either way he's going to take hits and get damaged. All in all, you can't lose. If you miss the pass you'll shoot past him because of the built-up speed, so pick it up into a sharp climb. Either pull off a Tuck turn, described above, or a Hammerhead to get back in a dive and do it again. After you've gained a couple of kills this way the right aim comes naturally. The best part is there is no known way to counter this move. If he dives, he's only slowing down the time it takes for you to kill him. Turning is about the only option, and it doesn't work all the time.

That's the Yak Snap-shot. Any aircraft with nose guns can pull it off provided you practice enough. Drones offline are great, since all they do is circle. Another option is to grab an idiot in the TA and try there. I'm working on a page for each aircraft in the game, complete with index. All I need is time, since the project is a tad old and out of date.




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Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School
"My art is the wings of an aircraft through the skies, my music the deep hum of a prop as it slices the air, my thrill the thunder of guns tearing asunder an enemy plane."
Flakbait
19 September 2000

[Minotaur]

Flakbait;

Would you mind posting a film, I am lost on your meaning esp the "Tuck" move.

Thanks!  

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Dog out..."
Wardog

[flakbait]

Jekyll corrected me on that. It's not a Tuck it's a high Yo-Yo, and similar to some maneuvers he describes on his site. I'll try explaining this again, but it's not easy.

Put one hand out, fingers together, in front of you. Your right hand being higher than your left. Point your right hand towards your left, and start moving it towards your left hand at a steep angle. If these were aircraft, the attacker would look like he was going to dive short of the enemy plane. Put your gunsight on his spinner and let the aircraft dive almost short on him. Once about 900 yards away, with his canopy visible, pull up slightly to slow down your dive.

This creates a skidding effect that's hard to describe. What he sees looks like you're trying to dive below him, but you're not. Once within 300 yards pull up slightly to place your gunsight on his cockpit and open up. You're still diving, but the skidding effect takes you under the target. Keep the gunsight on him, and he'll blow up. I got a Typhoon this way in a Yak yesterday.

I'd post film, but I'd need a target in the TA to try it against. Trust me, I can describe it about as well as I can pull it off. Rarely can I do it flawlessly. If I happen to try this on someone I'll start taping.




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Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School
"My art is the wings of an aircraft through the skies, my music the deep hum of a prop as it slices the air, my thrill the thunder of guns tearing asunder an enemy plane."
Flakbait
19 September 2000

[Andy Bush]

Flakbait

I believe everything you say.

This may well work in AH...but as far as real world ballistics go, this would never work.

A skidding gunshot will always result in the rounds going in the direction of the skid. It is not possible to 'rudder' the gunsight over to a target and expect hits (unless the range is so short that the disparity between flight path and gun line is negligible).

This sounds like a descending deflection shot where you try to hold the pipper on your target while you fly past. In any deflection situation, it will be nearly impossible to put the pipper 'on his cockpit' and hit the target...unless the target has ceased its motion and is stationary.

Good job on getting the kill.

Andy

[flakbait]

Andy, when I say "put your gunsight on his cockpit" I mean stick it in the middle of the target. I find it easier to give references like that, so a person knows about where to put the sight. As for the skid effect, like I said it's hard to describe. Ever see a fighter turn behind you, but look like he's skidding? That's what I'm trying to describe only in the vertical. You look like you're skidding vertically in a dive, almost like a wings-level stall. You're pointing at one thing, but flying at another. This tactic works, provided you can pull it off. Due to the childish FMs in WBs I could pull this time and time again on drones.

P-38, Bf-109, Yak; it didn't matter. Anything with nose guns in WBs can do this. Here it's a different matter, mostly due to more advanced models than I've ever seen. If you can do it on-call, I'll shake your hand; you're better than I am.




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Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School
"My art is the wings of an aircraft through the skies, my music the deep hum of a prop as it slices the air, my thrill the thunder of guns tearing asunder an enemy plane."
Flakbait
19 September 2000