P-51D & 109G-10

[wobbel]

Hi guys

Need help on witch of these to planes has the best turning ratio. P-51 or the 109-10.
And also if some of you can tell me more of + & - of these planes  


Wobbel

[Ripsnort]

Well, as an observer in the cockpit of a P51D vs G10 duel many months ago, I would say the P51D can turn inside the G10, and I make this judgement because the highly skilled pilot flying this G10 made sure he never engaged in a turn, but used the excellent climbing ability and speed to overcome his nemesis. (Hi Hangtime!).  The G10 won 3 out of 5 engagements. Oh, I would say both pilots were of equal caliber in this duel.  It was Hristos and Hangtime.

[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 03-05-2001).]

[Lephturn]

The P-51 has the sustained turn-rate advantage using it's combat flaps I believe.

The G-10's advantages all stem from it's great engine.  It has a superior climb rate, much better acceleration, and a higher top speed than the Pony.  In a co-E fight, the smart G-10 pilot will use these attributes to gain an energy advantage on the P-51 over time, and exploit that to win.  If you are the pony driver, your best bet is to not engage the G-10 without an energy advantage of some sort.  Failing that, the Pony's high-speed maneuverability is better, so keeping the fight fast is a good idea.  You also need to try to maneuver for angles and position as early as possible, since in the longer fight the G-10 will start to gain an energy advantage.

If you get defensive, you are in deep trouble.  You can't out accelerate or out run a G-10, so your only hope would be a maximum speed dive if you have the altitude for it.  You'd likely be better off to just fight it out.  Be super-aggresive and take avery shot you can, because the longer the fight is, the more it turns in the G-10's favour.

------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!

[wobbel]

Thx guys

When you dive from 10k with the P-51 & 109G-10 the Pony have the maneuver ability past 400-550. The G10 has only the maneuver in speed at max 400?. So The Pony has a Better high speed maneuver and it can out maneuver the G-10 in turns?

In short, the 109G-10 have better climb ratio and speed.

The P-51 have better Maneuver at high speed, out turn G10 with 10% flaps down.


Wobbel

[R4M]

P51D advantages:

Better turnrate, better turn radius. Combat flaps to tighten the turn when neccessary (careful with them, they add drag and burn E). Better dive. Better elevator authority. Slightly better 0G acceleration (this i my perception, tho I can be wrong). Way better hispeed handling. Better rollrate over 200mph aprox. Better deck speed (about 5mph faster than the G10's speed). Better E-keeping due low drag. Better weapons (overall, although the 30mm G10 packs much better punch, it is much more difficult to hit. The gondola fitted G10 degrades the maneouverability of the 109 significantly. ).


G10's advantages:
Speed over 5K. Acceleration and climbrate at all altitudes. The 30mm packs an incredible punch.

G10's advantages are less than P51's, but give the 109 the chance to dictate the rules of engagement/disengagement. The G10 is perfectly able to turn tables very fast on a defensive engagement by pure E-building.


However, the P51 can effectively negate the G10 a kill by making a 0G dive right to the deck ,where the G10 is slower.

1-on-1 the G10 has advantage over the P51D. In an arena environment the P51D is a distinctly better aircraft.

Hope this has helped somehow  

[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 03-05-2001).]

[Spatula]

P51-D:
 1. Poor Climber
 2. Poor Accelerator
 3. Speed disadvantage over 5K
 4. Over 400 MPH a *huge* handling advantage
 5. Does not suffer elevator stiffing at speed.
 6. Better guns
 7. Better instantaneous and better sustained turn rate - provided you got 25% juice or less and/or use combat flap settings.
 8. Huge range advatage.
 9. Fair vertical performance.

109 G10:
 A. Excellent climber
 B. Excellent Accelerator
 C. Speed advantage over 5K
 D. Almost impossible to manuever over 400 MPH
 E. Medium gun package. Slow ROF cannon and low ammo.
 F. Fair to poor sustained and instantaneous turn ability.
 G. Inferior range
 H. Excellent vert performance.


Adopting a maximising strengths versus enemies weaknesses, it should break down like:
109 keeping the fight in the vertical and using the raw climb advantage to gain E over the mustang. Dont get into sustained turns. Turning hard for short periods is ok as you can rely on your superior acceleration. You wont catch the mustang on the deck, so dont let him slip away.

P51-D
On the offensive: You should seek to gain angle advantage as soon as possible and end the fight as soon as you can. Get the 109 to turn with you, keep him turnin so he cant use his acceleration advantage or so he's too slow to manuever in the vert effectively.
use 1 or even 2 notches of flap to out-turn him. Turning is risky, as if he does not want to play that game you are screwed as you have lost your speed (bad news versus better accelerating planes).
I would try to keep the pony above 370-400 MPH and try to see if you can gain angles as the mustang will out-perform 109 easily at this speed. Hide your E state, by staying slightly below him but very fast, then you can force an overshoot, and the 109 will probably think he can zoom to saftey, where you'll just follow him up and blast him as he hangs on his prop.
On the defensive:
Keep your nose down, stay as fast as possible, use lo-yoyo reversals or slice-backs to keep speed up. If you cant force a mistake and E states are reletively equal use a series of nose-low nose-to-nose turns with combat flaps to try for a snap shot as you approach the HO, you should be able to beat him to the turn and get your guns on him before he can on you. You have to get him before you run out of alt, as he will maul you if you try running at this point.

Its a very hard fight, if you keep it fast, a zero-g extension to the deck will sometimes save your bellybutton (aka run like hell).

If you can draw the fight out by staying fast and repeatidly denying him shots you might be able to run his fuel low where he may get impatient and make mistakes, also the more fuel you drain from the pony the better it turns. If he runs out of fuel in enemy territory and you pinging him at least once you'll get the kill  


[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 03-05-2001).]

[wobbel]

Big Thx Spatula   , for taking the time for this excellent review of these planes.


Wobbel

[Lephturn]

Good stuff Spatula.    I want to add some stuff about diving escapes:

Ram said:  

Slightly better 0G acceleration (this i my perception, tho I can be wrong).

You are wrong if you are talking about low speed.    The G-10 is one of the best accelerating planes in the game, and the P-51 is in the bottom half of the acceleration speed list.  Even the Pony's low drag does not compensate for the G-10's big power in a 0G dive.  Until you get to 400 Mph or more, 0G dive speed is very closely related to climb speed and acceleration, and in this the G-10 is markedly superior.  The only time the Pony may accelerate better may be in a high speed dive.  Getting from 400 Mph to 500 Mph, the Pony may win, but from lower speeds, the G-10 will catch the Pony and chew it's tail off.

That 0G dive to the deck escape requires two things to work.  First, both planes must be fast, say over 300 Mph to start with.  If you start at 200 or less, the G-10 is going to catch the Pony quickly.  You can make it work anyway, but be aware you need a good bit of separation since the G-10 will gain on you in the short term.  Second, the Pony must have equal or more E.  If the G-10 has even a tiny bit more, it can dive to attain a higher speed than it's own level speed, and can still catch the Pony driver.  The really important part is separation.  The Pony needs to be well out of guns range to start with, because 5 Mph isn't very much difference.  If the Pony doesn't have more E to start with, the G-10 is going to nail him before both planes ever settle down to their top deck speeds.  Also, at even 2 or 3k, the G-10 will equal the Pony and start gaining, so this is normally only applicable when you are fighting out over the water.  When over land, as you are most times in the current arena, you can't get low enough for it to work anyway.

About the only way to escape is if you have enough alt to reach a speed the G-10 can't survive.  I do this in my Jug fairly often, although you must be careful.  With enough altitude, I simply 0G dive into compression, and pull out with the trim tabs right on the deck.  If you manage it just right, you can come out on the deck at close to 600 Mph.  Only a Jug, Pony, or Hog is going to keep it's wings and enough control to survive that.  If your opponent is silly enough to try and follow, he'll lose wings due to speed or rip 'em off trying to pull out.  I'm a Jug driver, and the G-10 with a good pilot is one of the toughest opponents I can face, so I have a lot of experience with this escape.  

Unfortunately, any half decent G-10 driver won't fall for this move.  All they need to do is dive at a more shallow angle and ride the edge of compression.  When the Pony pulls out of the steeper dive, the G-10 will gain ground based on geometry (he cuts the corner).  Done right, the G-10 can catch the Pony, but it depends a lot on what the initial separation was.  It works best when you have someplace to run to, either friendlies or a base, so you can use your speed to get to safety before he reels you back in.  It's not a guaranteed escape by any means, but it can buy you time.

If you are 1v1 against a G-10, you'll die most times trying to escape this way.  A patient and commited G-10 driver can run you down eventually.  In the arena, the only reason this escape often works is simply that the G-10 driver does not want to give up his altitude to chase you given that there may be other enemies around.  Indeed, always be aware of where your friends are, and use your 0G diving escape to buy you enough time to get to them for help.

------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!

[R4M]

  lepthurn, all I'll tell you is that I've tried to flee from P51Ds doing 0G dives in a G10 and they have catched and chewed me...now I simply dont try it anymore   . Maybe because I was on the receiving end, and the P51 has pretty good long range weapons, maybe they were losing ground but still they long range bursts killed me...but the fact remains that the P51 in a 0G dive is a very good accelerator  

as I said, I was not sure about that, was a personal perception, maybe they are evenly matched, or even the G10 has an advantage. but the P51D accelerates VERY fast in a 0G dive, so better watch out if you have one on your six (unless you are in a P47...wich BTW is your favorite ride   )

[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 03-06-2001).]

[LePaul]

Im so glad I found this thread.

I've been flying both the P51 and G10 alternatively to figure out which I prefer.  Here's what I have experienced, and most of this is tongue-n-cheek guys! hehe...

A.  If you REALLY wanna hear the stall horn, BANK your G10.  I've been straight and level at 300+ mph and if I make a standard rate turn (FAA Licensed Pilot here), the stall horn just chimes away.

B.  The Lancaster is the only "speedster" that climbs as woefully slow as the Pony.  

But some of you folks in the Training Area spent some time with me and showed me what a huge difference a notch of flaps make in a turn.  You also have to pick your fights a bit more carefully and hang onto all the energy/momentum you have.  Once its all gone, you better have oars or be able to flap really hard.

For fun, low level twsity-turns, Id flown mostly the Nik and Spit 9.  Going from those to the G10 or P51 has been quite a learning curve.

While I am performing well with the P-51, the G10 has been a rougher ride.  I fly it knowing its effectively a rocket with a cannon mounted on it, and I aim it at bombers accordingly.  My battles with fighters in the G10 has been much harder.  Im either compressing/buffeting from going over 400mph and unable to manuever, or stalling out left or right from trying to turn.  If I can keep it a climbing fight using the G10s climbing advantage, I generally win.

So what are the secrets to turning the G10?  And thru all the books Ive read onthe P51, they always cite a 400+ mph cruise speed.  I have yet to see anything much over 300 (25% fuel, no ext stores).  Ideas?

Thanks!




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Paul J. Busiere

Aces High Arena handle:  BD5Pilot
 http://bd5.checksix.net
BD-5 "T" (TurboProp) 90% complete, first flight in 2001 (We hope!)

[Vermillion]

   

So what are the secrets to turning the G10?

Simple. You don't.

Seriously, in combat you should never turn the G10 more than 90 degree's and rarely more than 45 degree's in a horizontal plane.

All combat manuevering in the G10 should be done in the vertical or near vertical planes. And if possible at low G's.

Lephturn, I have to seriously disagree with your assertion that a P-51D pilot can not dive away or run away from a G10 pilot. Actually I find it very easy, unless the G10 pilot catches me very early in the acceleration phase.  

Basically, if you feel you are losing the angles or "E" Battle, point your nose down and go. The trick is to quickly accelerate to 475-500mph, and then maintain that dive speed with the shallowest dive angle possible (conserve your alt for future acceleration).  If the G10 pilot levels out to wait you out, so that he can use his superior level speed, you do the same. As he starts to gain on you again, start the dive process again.

If the G10 starts to get inside of serious firing range (ie you started your run away manuever far too late), pop a notch of flaps, go level, and start a flat scissors. The G10 is horrible in scissors. Once you have equalized your E again, drop your nose to start the acceleration phase again, and gradually losen up your turns in the scissors into a very gentle diving S turns. And start to repeat the process.

Eventually, you will get down below 5k to on the deck, with the G10 CoE on your six (hopefully out of gun range if you did it correctly), where the Pony has superior level speed and can conviently just motor away from the 109.

I do find the G10 a very dangerous opponent in many of the aircraft I fly. But in a P51D, as long as I fly even halfway smart and the G10 doesn't start with a huge E advantage, I know that I can always disengage at will and run for home.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-06-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-06-2001).]

[Lephturn]

Ram,

I think you are correct in that a lot of it is perception.  Lag can sometimes make things look strange, particularly in an accelerating tail-chase.  Add to that the great long range shooting abilities of the .50 cal guns, and it will tag you as you exit the fight if you don't start with enough separation.  I know I will occasionally nail an extending 109 simply because as he gets up over 350, his controls get sluggish and he becomes a non-maneuvering target.  A 109 with his controls frozen in a high speed dive I can pick off at much longer ranges than normaly, say up to 600 or so.  Although on my FE I tag him as he is accelerating away, on his FE it may look like I stayed wired to his 6, or even gained on him a bit, who knows.

I look at it this way though, which plane is a better accelerator?  When you zero G dive, you are accelerating faster because you remove a bunch of induced drag, correct?  Doesn't that mean that the better accelerating plane has even MORE of an advantage?  To me it seem that the thrust stays the same while the drag is reduced, thus favouring the plane with more thrust even more heavily.  In actuality, thrust does not stay the same, since gravity plays a part, so a heavier plane will get more "thrust".  As the speeds increase and drag starts to increase rapidly, the lower drag, heavier plane starts to perform better, and only then starts to gain the upper hand.

In my Jug vs. a G-10, it seems to me that I don't really start to stabilize with him until I blow past 300 Mph.  As I wind up past 350 or so, I seem to begin to pull away, and from 400 on I am still accelerating while the G-10 seems to "hit a wall" in terms of acceleration, at least in comparison to the Jug.  Heck, if I'm slow, say 200, and a Zeke is on my six, I'm in deep trouble.  The Zeke will "out dive" me to 250 or even 300 Mph simply based on it's great acceleration at low speed.  When we get faster, I'll leave him in the dust of course, but in the short term he'll "catch" me.  In fact, I use the acceleration and diving prowess of the F6F just like this.  The F4U will out-dive and out-run an F6F-5 easily.  However, from a slow start, the Kitty will catch the Hog, and quickly.  I can often nail Hogs that try to run using the Kitty's great dive acceleration in the early part of the dive.  Once the speed goes past 350 or so, it's all over and the Hog is checking out, but I can often get close enough for a shot in the early phase of the dive.

It would be very interesting to run some tests and see how they really compare.  I'm sure my perceptions are impacted just as much by lag as yours are Ram, so there is likely some middle ground between our perceptions that is the truth.

------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!

[Lephturn]

Verm,

Yeah, I'm used to doing this move in the P-47, not the Pony.  I think we have the same opinion of the capabilities of the G-10 though, in that it is a great accelerator, even in a dive, in the early part of the dive.  Past 400, yep the Pony or Jug is going to out-dive the G-10 and can get some breathing space.  I've just been run down and caught quite a few times by patient skilled G-10 drivers that are willing to fly it with the trim wheels to keep pace with me.

I guess the difference between the Pony and the Jug in this regard are the key, in that the Jug slows down too fast at 475-500 to maintain it's advantage and the G-10 can eventually reel it back in.  The Pony's lower drag allows you to keep your speed longer, so I'll take your word that it works.  Must be nice!

Sigh, oh the hardships of being a Jug pilot. Wasn't one of your tag lines "Real men fly radials!"    Thanks for the correction on the Pony escape maneuver, I'll have to try it out when we get the new P51-B!

------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!

[Staga]

I always wondered why Verm used that sig "Real men fly radials" but was hanging in my 6 o'clock with P-51?
 

[flakbait]

When it comes to turning something like an Energy Fighter you don't do it horizontally. Pull a flat turn and you'll end up floating down as a red mist. So you use that huge speed and momentum advantage and turn vertically. A vertical turn, like a high Yo-Yo, is basically half of a barrel roll. Pull the nose up, roll it about 45 degrees and pull back down in one smooth motion. If your nose doesn't seem to want to come down, give the rudder a quick boot. Don't hold the rudder too long or you'll lose speed; that's bad.

As for the scissors, well there's a trick to learn about that. A while back I had Jekyll in the TA talking about one maneuver or another. He was in a 190 A8 I believe, with me in a spit 9. He decided to scissors on me so after two or three revolutions I went vertical before dropping the nose and opening up. He literally ran into my MG rounds and gained a very messy oil slick on his canopy   The thing about scissors that can be forgotten is that any aircraft quick with pitch (fast elevator response) can kill your speed-demon roller. Just pop the nose up and immedately drop it back down. If the guy isn't flying with his head in the back window he'll turn right into your bullet stream.

Try that pop up in a 109 and you'll end up asking "Where'd he go!?" about the same time the Pony formally introduces you to his Brownings. Not a good thing.

-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"During the Battle of Britain the question 'fighter or fighter-bomber?'
had been decided once and for all: The fighter can only be used as a bomb carrier
with lasting effect when sufficient air superiority has been won." Adolph Galland