Author Topic: I Condemn The "fudged-up" Icon Settings  (Read 13558 times)

Offline WMLute

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« Reply #105 on: February 21, 2005, 12:33:28 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SlapShot
Definately a "nub" Lute ... feel better ? :D


yeah... i was leanin' towards a "nub", but w/ 8yrs of WW2 flight sim exp. I wasn't sure.  I'm kinda in the middle compared to some.

hmmm.....  wait! i got it... nub + vet = NUT.

Ahhhh... most def. a nut.  I'm happy w/ that.

Proud to be AH's #1 NUT.

I see a whole new meaning to "busting a NUT" already!
"Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity."
— George Patton

Absurdum est ut alios regat, qui seipsum regere nescit

Offline Cobra412

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« Reply #106 on: February 21, 2005, 12:58:06 AM »
Please explain since you have yet to do so.  Why up a plane if your afraid people will know what your flying?  What's the difference if they disable skins and get the same information that way?  What are you going to protest the disabling of skins too?  

It's simple if your afraid to fly it because someone will know what it is then don't fly it.  Would it suit you best if they implemented a system that designated just if it were a fighter, bomber,and transport?  Then it'd be "fair" and wouldn't offend the poor soles that  choose  to up a particular airframe and forbid to take responsibility for making such a decision.

Since you seem to think it's your right to be able to hide behind an icon. It is also the other persons right to know what your flying.  You want the icon system to help you but at the same time your selfishness puts blinders on that makes you incapable of seeing this system helps the newer guys by knowing what your flying.  Even if they don't know every last in and out of a particular airframe it can assist them.  But again your to selfish to see anything other than how this system hurts you and not how it helps the rest of the newer pilots.  I will say though your stance doesn't surprise me as it seems the community as a whole is almost always thinking me me me and not the other way around.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2005, 01:39:17 AM by Cobra412 »

Offline leitwolf

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« Reply #107 on: February 21, 2005, 02:40:09 AM »
I think the new icons are not that much of an issue.
I remember vaguely that I always wanted the icons to be like that, but that was when my fav. plane was the tempest. lol The new system certainly helps the perk planes, the faster they are the bigger the advantage they gain. High closure speed means less time they are exposing their perk tag to any given opponent.
Almost ideal conditions for the Tempest now.
I dont see the big problem for the 109s either. The system now is almost identical to what we had in AH1, back then it was the skin and now it's the icon. Granted, the F-4 cant sucker anyone into a dogfight because someone is confusing it with a G-10. The real problem imho is that nowadays even the F-4 has a hard time outturning anything in the game that i believe the advantage of this tactic is nonexistant anyway.
veni, vidi, vulchi.

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #108 on: February 21, 2005, 06:51:38 AM »
Cobra, I'm not terribly familiar with how you fly, so I'll ask a question.  

It seems (if I am wrong, forgive me for making the assumption) that you are usually flying with a wingman, or in the company of other friendlies.  Having someone to watch your back and bail you out of trouble goes a long way towards evening out the advantage you give up when you fly a non-'45 plane.  

I am typically flying alone, or at most in the presence of 1 or 2 friendlies who aren't necesarily working with me.  That isn't a bad thing, I prefer that kind of play personally.  But that may be the reason why I point to the plane (and numbers) as having more impact on a fight then any kind of personal "skill".  You are only as good as the plane you are in, in my opinion.

If this were the MA 4 years ago, I'd agree wholeheartedly with your opinion that early war planes aren't necesarily harmed by this change.  However, in the MA of today, where the fights tend to be X on 1 (where X is usually between 4 and 15 or so) your choices are either fly with the X, or fly a '45 plane.  Even before the icon changes, flying a early-war (read .303 or MG-FF armed) plane was fairly futile because you usually can't kill the first opponent fast enough to keep the numbers managable.  That really won't change to much with the introduction of the new icons, it'll just make it that much harder to get the first guy to even engage before his help shows up.  Hell, I spent my first night back flying the P-40, and *nobody* would engage until it was at least 2 v 1.  I had spits (on multiple occasions) and a zeke (on 1 occasion) camp out a few thousand feet above me waiting for some buddies to show up before engaging.  

So is that a lapse of my "SA" or something?  Should my "SA" have kicked in in the hangar and said "Wait, you want to pick a faster plane!"?  

Or should my "SA" have said "Pick a different field to fly from, there aren't enough friendlies to help you out here."?  

Yea, I know I'm being sarcastic, sorry.  It just comes out without trying lol.  

Anyway, this argument is pretty pointless, so I guess I'm done.  



A chitty pilot will always be a chitty pilot no matter what he/she flies in. A pilot who is mediocre will have their ups and downs in an early war bird and a pilot who is beyond mediocre will still win more than they lose in an early war bird. It seems your just making an excuse for you and others lack of ability to fight and win.

I'll close with some meaningless numbers.  Back in the beginning of January I tooled around in the Spit for about a week before deleting my account out of frustration.  I did the Ki-84 some to, because it has a wicked cool paint job.  In the Spit 5, I went 84 and 10, Spit 9 was 22 and 6, Ki-84 was 23 and 4.

The night I came back, I went 9 and 5 in the P-40.  Since I said the hell with slow planes, I'm ~25 and 2 in the G-10.  

How would you explain such a drastic difference in performance given the only variable changing is the plane, not the pilot?  Pretty much all my fights are the same, they go from 1-3 v 1, I usually won't engage if there are more than 3, unless I don't have a choice... in which case I usually die valiantly and quickly.  The picking and choosing is much easier to do in the G-10, while the actual killing is done much more quickly in the Spit.

Anyway, have a good day all.

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #109 on: February 21, 2005, 07:27:32 AM »
Really simply put, if people would leave the accountants and tally counters back at the hangar and stop playing "Tally me bananas", and try to have a little fun, that`s exacctly what you would get. Fun.
  Trying to impress someone else with X, Y and Z stat wise is hilarious to me.  The stats are only usefull to each individual if they are trying to work on a particualr area as a gudeline for YOU. Even in this case there always seems to be something that will screw up stat wise in any particular tour. Only you can tell what is what and what adjustments reflect actual correctness. For an example, for the last two to three months I would go into the game, pick a plane and head out. Within a short time, on many occasions, the engine would sputter and go dead. Then I would realize that the fuel settings had been changed from my norm to 25%. Get in a plane that I normaly use in attack mode, head to base only to discover on arriving that I had no ord. I knew something was screwy because I run the same fuel/ord etc loadout on most every occasion for a particualr plane. Then I discovered that not only was the fuel/ord being changed, but also the fighter/attack modes were also being changed. Just about the time I would think everything was back to norm , BAM, here we would go again. Finaly got with Skuzz and after about a week it was discovered that "enable cache writing" was checked on the disk.
  My point is, fly for yourself and to have fun. To hell with the rest of it. If it`s fun do it and forget about quotas and put the Stanleys away in a drawer somewhere. Fly what you want , when you want to and let the other guy do the same. You will have a lot more fun.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2005, 07:29:39 AM by Jackal1 »
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Urchin

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« Reply #110 on: February 21, 2005, 07:31:58 AM »
I'm not trying to impress anybody with anything.  I put them up there so Cobra could explain to me how the same pilot could get such drastically different results even though he stays the same pilot.  

I don't really care what anyone thinks of me, those who think I'm a dick are going to think I'm a dick no matter what I do, those that think I suck will think I suck no matter what kind of "stats" I've got.  

Those stats are purely for contrast, I'm sure if I look hard enough I could find a similar dichotomy in any other pilot.  

How would you explain it Jackal?  

Think I just need to try harder in the P-40?

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #111 on: February 21, 2005, 07:37:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1

    My point is, fly for yourself and to have fun. To hell with the rest of it. If it`s fun do it and forget about quotas and put the Stanleys away in a drawer somewhere. Fly what you want , when you want to and let the other guy do the same. You will have a lot more fun.


That is about the most asanine statement I've seen in this thread.  While it isn't impossible to fly a non-'45 plane (or a Spit) and have "fun", if actually getting a kill before you die makes the game "fun" for you, then you aren't going to have much "fun" flying anything else.

If you *DO* have fun getting assraped 6 on 1 every sortie in a P-40, then more power to you, you are a far better man than I.

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #112 on: February 21, 2005, 07:37:54 AM »
Ease off there Urch. I wasn`t referring to you.:D
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Midnight

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« Reply #113 on: February 21, 2005, 10:40:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wotan
I can't and I didn't. What I said was that a highly maneuverable single aircraft can get lost in a furball.


You might not see it, but you are making that comparison. There is no furball with with only one bandit (I.e. a single 109E) against a mixed group of opposing aircraft. So, no matter how maneuverable the 109E is, it's not going to get lost as you suggest... not in AH. Every pilot has INSTANT control of where they are looking, regardless of turn or Gs (exception blacking out) and the icon makes the aircraft instantly discernable from all other friendlies. I don't care who the pilot is, he won't get lost in the fight.

In a real AH furball, having many friendly and enemy aircraft at once, it is not probable that a single 109E or SpitI or whatever is going to get everyone clammoring to kill it first. In fact, I believe that most pilots will discount the presence of it in order to give priority to all the late war aircraft that are in the same furball and presenting a much greater threat.

Quote
Originally posted by Wotan
Non-sense in the example I used above about the 109 E applies equally to a Spit 1. With a Spit 1 closing you look back and see the 'Spit' icon you couldn't see those cannons from front profile view.


Maybe so, but now you are inferring that the spit or 109 in question had not been seen at all previous to the pilot in front noticing it on his six. In the case of said spit or 109 being at greater range than 800, the pilot still has no idea which type it is and will act (most likely) in the assumation that it is a later war spit or 109. In the case where said spit or 109 is already within 800 before getting noticed, the defensive pilot is already in trouble because if a 109E or SpitI is that close, he is probably too slow to run now and is certain to be out-turned.

Quote
Originally posted by Wotan
Is that addressed to me?

No, the 190 comment is pointed to the ones who have been saying A8s are now useless compared to D9s.

Quote
Originally posted by Wotan
As such 'time in gun solution' is important. The Spit 1 tag will mean a neg g to nose low extension is all that's needed to escape. Folks will react to the specific tag differently then they would a generic 'Spit' tag making flying the Spit 1 more pointless then it is now.


A SpitI looses this suprise as soon as he shoots, or if the pilot he shoots hasn't seen him, as soon as the tickle of 303s is heard. The knowing to push Neg G's to stall the spitI's engine is not reactionary to most AH players anyway. Most will break into a max-g turn, which a spitI can easliy follow.

And as I stated in my post, let's see some before and after stats on the 109E and SpitI before whining up a huge controvesy about this.

Offline Midnight

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« Reply #114 on: February 21, 2005, 10:51:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
That really won't change to much with the introduction of the new icons, it'll just make it that much harder to get the first guy to even engage before his help shows up.  Hell, I spent my first night back flying the P-40, and *nobody* would engage until it was at least 2 v 1.  I had spits (on multiple occasions) and a zeke (on 1 occasion) camp out a few thousand feet above me waiting for some buddies to show up before engaging.


Oh come off it, Urchin. Give us a break would you? If I see a single fighter of ANY type a few thousand feet below me, I'm going in RIGHT NOW before some other clown comes along to steal the kill. I don't know where you guys fly, but I don't see this cowardly flying where someone won't engage until they have a friendly to help them.

Repeating a statement I seem to make all the time... I regularly go out alone to bases where many enemy cons are flying from and engage them all by my lonesome, all makes, all models, early war or late. Yes, I'm in a P-51D, but I'm not waiting on other friendlies before I start engaging.

Offline mechanic

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« Reply #115 on: February 21, 2005, 11:00:17 AM »
you guys are nuts....



I can fly a spit mk1, try really hard to get a kill, then die.

I can fly a spit14 and get 5 kills easy and not die.

I can fly a Typh and BnZ dweebs untill i waste all my ammo, then go for some bombers and die.

I can fly a P-40E, and on any given day get 5 kills no problem. then another day i get screwed by 5 LA7s at once.

I can fly a jug and get hundreds of kills before my ammo runs dry.

I can fly a 262 and get nothing 'cos everyone notices a 262.

I can fly a 109F and get no kills cos my aim with luft guns sucks.

I can fly a goon and get 10 proxies as dweebs auger diving on me.

I can drive a tank and spend 2 hours finding my spot then get avacadoed by a tiger or a jabo.

I can fly a bomber and shoot everyone down from 1k.

I can do WHAT THE F**K I LIKE, and make my own fun in any plane, against any odds.

Its all about, as with most of life, being in the right place at the right time.

Urchin, im sure if you stopped with the negative waves you could enjoy it again. come fight me in DA, that'll make you feel better schooling me a few times in early war birds.

i think you personally are suffering from such intense burnout that you forgot what AH is about.






I remeber Jackal picking my arse out of my spit5 from the saftey of his CV gun no less than 4 times in 5 mins, while i was on the tail of a con each time.....   no biggie, we laughed about it, i called him a banana gun dweeb and he shot me down again.

It was fun, and rather funny.






Enjoy the game or quit whining, things dont change from negative imput, only from possitive.



And it is VERY EASY to find a few dweebs to own in a P40 or an FM2.


Easy peasy.



its gotta be fun, or you gotta go somewhere else.

this isnt an attack urch, i like you, think you're cool and honest and a wicked fighter pilot. You just need to get back on the crack that is AH, or scrub your hands of it completely.

these posts cant make you happy.



love you guys....DWEEBS


batfink

S!
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #116 on: February 21, 2005, 11:29:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by mechanic

I remeber Jackal picking my arse out of my spit5 from the saftey of his CV gun no less than 4 times in 5 mins, while i was on the tail of a con each time.....   no biggie, we laughed about it, i called him a banana gun dweeb and he shot me down again.

It was fun, and rather funny.


S!


ROFL I still haven`t figured out how I was doin that at that distance.
  I also remember being in an A8 and you was in a 110 once.  I nearly wore the leather off of my offcial LW spiked heels on that one.
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Offline Cobra412

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« Reply #117 on: February 21, 2005, 12:23:08 PM »
Urchin I honestly think it depends on the fights you choose and where you choose to fight them.  I don't fly with the hordes as some may think and I don't fly at ungodly alts as some may think.  More often than not I'm flying alone or maybe around a few other friendlies who aren't necessarily working with me just as you said previously.

 The community will never shy away from the 3 on 1 or more.  It's a way of life for most and it's just something that others who don't choose to fly that way will have to deal with.  You can try to hide amongst the crowd and survive.  You can try to choose a less volatile area to fight in.  Or you could fight on the edge of the main battle and drag one or two cons out to an area you want them away from their friendlies.

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #118 on: February 21, 2005, 02:36:18 PM »
Quote
Please explain since you have yet to do so. Why up a plane if your afraid people will know what your flying? What's the difference if they disable skins and get the same information that way? What are you going to protest the disabling of skins too?


Quote the word 'afraid' as used by me.

Who cares about 'skins'? Quote what I said about 'skins'.

Quote
It's simple if your afraid to fly it because someone will know what it is then don't fly it. Would it suit you best if they implemented a system that designated just if it were a fighter, bomber,and transport? Then it'd be "fair" and wouldn't offend the poor soles that choose to up a particular airframe and forbid to take responsibility for making such a decision.


Quote what I said about the new icons.

I specifically said that they may have an impact on early plane usage. Anything above and beyond that point in this thread has nothing to do with me.

Now search my career stats and tell me what planes I fly.

You make assumptions about the made up thoughts in your head. How about dealing with what I actually type and not the about fantasy discussion you are having in your head.

Quote
Since you seem to think it's your right to be able to hide behind an icon. It is also the other persons right to know what your flying. You want the icon system to help you but at the same time your selfishness puts blinders on that makes you incapable of seeing this system helps the newer guys by knowing what your flying. Even if they don't know every last in and out of a particular airframe it can assist them. But again your to selfish to see anything other than how this system hurts you and not how it helps the rest of the newer pilots. I will say though your stance doesn't surprise me as it seems the community as a whole is almost always thinking me me me and not the other way around.


Quote where I said I wanted to hide behind icons. Selfish? As I said what planes do I fly in AH? Innominates career stats will help there. Wotan / Batz / Helvik are the three niks I have used in AH.

You still haven't told your in game nik? And you make claims about hiding...

My reply to your claim that anything other then exact plane type icons is 'gamey' or 'unrealistic' was to point out the fact that in real life pilots used certain techniques that allowed them to hide in plain view.

Don't equate a rebuttal of your claims with advocacy. I made it clear in replies to Levi what my opinion is toward the new icons. Go back and read it.

Your problem is you read and then can't comprehend what is written. Or if you do you try like hell to re-define the discussion around things that are completely irrelevant.

Midnight,

Quote
You might not see it, but you are making that comparison. There is no furball with with only one bandit (I.e. a single 109E) against a mixed group of opposing aircraft. So, no matter how maneuverable the 109E is, it's not going to get lost as you suggest... not in AH. Every pilot has INSTANT control of where they are looking, regardless of turn or Gs (exception blacking out) and the icon makes the aircraft instantly discernable from all other friendlies. I don't care who the pilot is, he won't get lost in the fight.


Sure it will, since are you a furballer anyway?  

Quote
In a real AH furball, having many friendly and enemy aircraft at once, it is not probable that a single 109E or Spit I or whatever is going to get everyone clammoring to kill it first. In fact, I believe that most pilots will discount the presence of it in order to give priority to all the late war aircraft that are in the same furball and presenting a much greater threat.


Again since when are you a 'furballer'?

What Marseille learned and did was also repeated individually and in groups by the LW on the eastern front as well. It's your squad mates contention that this is 'gamey' when it happened in real life.

I will dig some more quotes up from other LW pilots when I get home from work.

Quote
Maybe so, but now you are inferring that the spit or 109 in question had not been seen at all previous to the pilot in front noticing it on his six. In the case of said spit or 109 being at greater range than 800, the pilot still has no idea which type it is and will act (most likely) in the assumation that it is a later war spit or 109. In the case where said spit or 109 is already within 800 before getting noticed, the defensive pilot is already in trouble because if a 109E or Spit I is that close, he is probably too slow to run now and is certain to be out-turned.


Again since when have you ever been in a furball? Urchin described the situation several times and he is right.

Quote
A Spit I looses this suprise as soon as he shoots, or if the pilot he shoots hasn't seen him, as soon as the tickle of 303s is heard. The knowing to push Neg G's to stall the spitI's engine is not reactionary to most AH players anyway. Most will break into a max-g turn, which a spitI can easliy follow.

And as I stated in my post, let's see some before and after stats on the 109E and Spit I before whining up a huge controvesy about this.


Again Urchin described the situation above. As I have said folks react to the icon even prior to AH2 and they will after. In the past they see the '109' tag and since the G-10 was the 109 preferred most their experience would be to break rather then just nose low and extend. Same with the Spit 1 or Hurri 1. Folks see the icon and based on their experience expect to get a full salvo of Hizookas.

Once they break they give these early planes the opportunity to kill them.

The break also provide a large plane form shot as they pull lead, which they are able to do.

As Urchin pointed out above very few folks fly these aircraft to begin with and they account for around .05% of all kills in AH over a tour. I have said these aircraft are rare as well, go back and read it. A drop of .01 percent is significant in terms of overall numbers in regards to these types of aircraft..

The only point I brought up was the effect of the new icons may have on these very early aircraft. All the other garbage is a result of folks like you and your squad mate being unable to stick with the subject at hand with out going off on irrelevant tangents.

I will post some quotes of LW pilots in the east this evening but this thread is running in circles now, 412th guys make up stuff and then I type a 500 word reply.

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #119 on: February 21, 2005, 02:37:09 PM »
oops,

Hiya Leitwolf!!!

How ya been?