Author Topic: I Condemn The "fudged-up" Icon Settings  (Read 13556 times)

Offline mechanic

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I Condemn The "fudged-up" Icon Settings
« Reply #90 on: February 20, 2005, 06:44:52 PM »
I think we should get the option for icons to automatically turn off at ranges under 500yrds.

you know what you're up against by then through visual ident and memory of the icon.

i ignore icons a close range anyhow, it only becomes important for judging the E state and direction of planes far away, make no difference close up.

i hate icons, every AI sim i play i always have them off.

just my opinion.

bat
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Offline Wotan

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« Reply #91 on: February 20, 2005, 06:52:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Cobra412
Urchin I said that specifically because some folks seem to think that just because someone knows your in an early war bird means your screwed.  I'm giving them another option since it's obvious they are worried about holding their own alone in the aircraft they chose to fly.  Maybe I should cry about the same thing when someone alerts people that I'm in an area or my squad is and a group comes hunting for Mustangs.  Maybe I should tell HTC that I want it changed so people don't know who killed them till after I've landed because it's unfair that I don't get to hide my identity.  I mean in reality that's what these guys are asking for except for the fact it's dealing with their aircrafts model instead of the person themselves.  If I could hide my identity or squads identity it would be just as fair.  

I've beaten many people in the P-40E and P-40B which were flying late war birds by myself.  That was regardless if they tried to BnZ or TnB me.  I wasn't hidding behind an aircrafts icon hoping I'd fool someone and I didn't need a wingman either.  It seems because they have the option of more than just 2 variants for a particular airframe they want to try and use it to their advantage instead of just beating them outright.  They want to try and deceive their enemy so they can gain perk points and/or get a big hurrah from their buddies when they land kills in an early war bird so it boosts their egos.

It seems that it's the same thing over and over again.  People want to try and game the game as much as possible opposed to just play.  If you choose to fly an early war bird then that is your choice.  If you can't get kills in it now because you were relying on a bluff before then don't fly it.  If you flew it because you wanted to sucker people in so you could rack up your perk points (which is most likely the case for some) then now you have to earn the kills instead of relying on your bluff.  If you actually flew it in the past because it was more of a "challenge" then you should have no issues with the new icon system.  

Simple fact is if the con wants to fight they are going to fight whether it be in the tnb or the bnz and whether or not your an early war or late war bird.   You will still have folks who will also test the waters prior to engaging so a bluff won't always work.

Basically what it comes down to is some wish to prey on either new people in the game who don't know any better or people who aren't so new and fly wrecklessly on a constant basis.  If you flew the early war bird because it was a challenge (which I doubt the ones complaining do it for that reason) then you wouldn't care if they knew what plane your in.  You'd fight to better yourself in that plane regardless of how the con chooses to fight you.  You would lose some and you'd win some even if you were at a disadvantage because of your plane.  Nothing guarantees you that a con will choose to fight you or not fight you based on the plane your flying.  It also doesn't guarantee that your early war plane will be priority number one on their target list either just because it's an early war plane.  

Lute you might wanna ask Wotan about that.  He's the expert on who's a nub and who's a vet.  I'm sure he'd be glad to give you an answer.  It seems if your a vet (time on station)you know it all and if you are a nub (lack of time on station) you don't know chit.

I say do it like Sunking suggested to an extent.  Since it's such a disadvantage for another player to know the plane your in give no plane icon.  Give them a rook, knight or bish icon with distance and nothing else.  I'm sure though that would be going too far for some and would be yet unfair again.  Then their bluffs wouldn't work because they don't even have a clue as to what they are fighting until they are almost totally committed and their bluffs could backfire on them.  Lets get Marseilles opinion on this.  Will the real Marseille please stand up.



The P40-E is not an 'early aircraft' in the context of my point. It matches up very well with the 109F-4 (not early war either).

As I said by your replies you simply haven't  got a clue and are just making things up as you go. Post your game nik so we can get an idea of 'how' and 'what' you fly.

Take a 109 E, it has neither the fuel range, nor the climb, nor the speed to do anything more then head to the fur.

The MGFF/M in AH have an effective range of around 300 yards (240 ideally). You only get 60 rounds per gun and they fire at the same time. So you want to get very close to ensure your shots count. The 7 mm are even worse. .303s (Spit 1, Hurri 1) are even worse. You wont get multiple passes because as soon as the person your attacking realizes you are in a Spit 1 or Emil and can fly it they will just run away.

So you end with limited combat time, limited effective kill range, and limited speed for closure even when diving. You get to the fight and some one looks back and sees '109E-4' and they laugh, go nose low, left spiral and then climb.

The same would happen to a Spit 1, Hurri 1, A6M2 (which has even guns; Type 99 MK1 then the 109 E) etc...

Its not hiding to get a kill, its using the confusion and uncertainty within context of that fight to your advantage given the limitations of the plane you are in. As I posted above this is 'historically accurate' and hardly 'gamey'. No one flies the 109 E-4  (or any of those other early planes I mentioned) as their plane of choice, they fly these planes when they want something different.  

You throw out words like 'gamey' as if planes in real life had exact plane type icons. Look at the size and range and information provided by AH icons. Not even under the best conditions would pilots have that level of detail with just a glance like they do in AH.

 We all acknowledge the limitations of monitors and computer hardware but even so the information provided by far exceeds what ever hardware limitations 'virtual pilots' face. No one has said make AH without icons but if you are going to make accusations of 'gameyness' then at least be honest. If anything exact icon type is what's 'gamey'. I think we all can acknowledge icons contribute to game play in a positive fashion. After all it would be no fun in main chasing around single pixel dots hoping to encounter a bad guy.  

Since you use words like 'gamey' I think it should be pointed out, once again, that real life pilots in WW2 had no idea of the specific variant of aircraft type they were fighting. Not only did they encounter mixed variants of one type but mixed typed  formations as well. This is evident is the mis-identifying of aircraft in pilot kill claims and at times when friendly aircraft attacked other friendly aircraft. I gave examples above.

You may try to sell folks some BS about what's 'gamey' or not but that has nothing to do with my point. You are just trying to rationalize your assumption that folks 'need' your advice.

You have no idea what I fly or how I fight. Maybe Urchin would tell you, after all we flew together for years.

Urchin,

I made my point clear. I agree that early war planes are rare (and I said as much several times above). My point is they may get even more rare, we will see.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2005, 06:55:50 PM by Wotan »

Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #92 on: February 20, 2005, 07:03:21 PM »
WOW .. the "Walls of Text" have made this thread totally ghey.

Can't see the forest thru the trees ... or the BS is so high it to dang hard to wade thru.
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Offline Raider179

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« Reply #93 on: February 20, 2005, 07:04:21 PM »
no kidding I aint reading all that lol

Offline Cobra412

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« Reply #94 on: February 20, 2005, 07:05:27 PM »
Awe Dipstick unlike a girly spit driver on the deck?  I really didn't know there was a difference.  Again funny considering it shows that you know me so well.  Especially when on more than one occasion people identified me purely due to the fact there was a mustang on the deck turn fighting with Spits, N1Ks, KI61s, and last but not least zekes.  I suppose this is another TnBers whine about BnZers and how we should play your game because you must obviously pay our HTC bills.    

Please ask around to see how many folks have seen me consistantly turn fighting on the deck.  Since your the all knowing ask Sekiji and the 367th who they were fighting and how we were fighting at A59.  Better yet ask the JBs since they are part of the Knights who they were fighting and how they were fighting near A30.

Before I go though let me see if I'm as good at this game as you are. You wear a size 12 womans thong with frilly lace that was taken from your sisters house after a "family get together"?  How far off am I?

Offline Cobra412

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« Reply #95 on: February 20, 2005, 07:26:41 PM »
Wotan let me make it simple and straight forward so you can understand.  You chose to fly those particular aircraft.  Because you chose that particular aircraft is not our fault nor is it our fault that your incapable of surviving once your little secret is discovered.  You'd rather play the slight of hand because your incapable of playing your hand straight forward due to not only the aircraft you chose but also because of your inability to fly it without having something else to help you along.    

What would you have done had they not allowed different skins?  Cried about how they gave up your identity because everyone knew your plane because of it's paint scheme?  Again it's your choices in not only the airframe you fly but how you employ that airframe that has led you to the whimpering we are hearing now about how unjust it is to your poor early war plane and your little bluff that you try to use in order to get a kill.  Maybe if you learned to stand up straight and face your enemy without hiding behind some kind of illusion this icon system wouldn't bother you so much.  If your the better pilot as you claim to be and have so much experience then prove it with your ingame flying and shut up.

Offline plank

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« Reply #96 on: February 20, 2005, 07:35:36 PM »
If I were better at this game, I'd have an opinion on this and believe me, it would put everyone in their place.



:p

Offline Cobra412

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« Reply #97 on: February 20, 2005, 07:44:13 PM »
Kind of what I figured Dipstick.  What's wrong your all knowing don't want to back your claims of us only flying at 25k?  Guess not considering it wouldn't fit with your point of view.  You must hate being wrong all the time.  Guess the only thing you have going for you is the ability to hide behind the real pilots of BK.

Offline Cobra412

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« Reply #98 on: February 20, 2005, 07:47:45 PM »
As I figured keep hiding Dipstick.  Avoid the questions because we all know you don't have the answer.

Offline Cobra412

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« Reply #99 on: February 20, 2005, 07:54:49 PM »
Please prove your supposed claims that all the 412th does is fly at 25k.  Please enlighten me considering I've fought many of your crew on the deck by my choosing and not theirs.  Seems unlike yourself many of your squadmates actually know the difference and have complemented me after such engagements.  Keep up the Shane act btw it does wonders for your squad.

Btw I also like the fact you have input nothing to this subject except for proving your a troll.  The only thing you tried to come in here and do is insult someone which frankly you did a pretty chitty job of.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2005, 07:57:09 PM by Cobra412 »

Offline Cobra412

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« Reply #100 on: February 20, 2005, 08:02:13 PM »
That's amusing considering Redd had no clue as to who I was and neither did Leviathn.  They are one of the few who's opinion really means anything on your squad in the first place.

Offline Black Sheep

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« Reply #101 on: February 20, 2005, 08:48:05 PM »
Funny how everyone spouts off on here anonymously. Quite amusing. Even funnier is that for people like Wotan and others, they do Exactly what they accuse others of...

Offline Midnight

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« Reply #102 on: February 20, 2005, 10:49:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wotan
Before you claim something like 'flying like that is not historical' or 'fighting in an environment of mixed aircraft is not historical' well it may not be for Western Europe but on the Ostfront (especially early) and in the Med it sure was 'historical'.


LOL ... Wotan... now you are making me laugh. You can't make some comparison between AH furballing and what was done by Marseille. No one in AH needs to worry about vision problems, or working out on their stomach muscles or colliding with friendly aircraft in a big fight. No one is fighting for thier lives and the lack of that drastically reduces the adrenile rush that can cause confusion and hesitation and the many other physical and mental effects actual fear can cause.

Your argument about The SpitI being targeted, just because the icon now identifies it is lame. The difference is very easy to see at the leading edge of the wing,,, cannons or no cannons. People could always see that anyway.

As for the 109 arguement, to me it's mute also. If I see 2 109s flying together, I'm going to engage the one that I feel I have the biggest advantage over at the moment so I can get 1 killed and change the odds as fast as possible. If the one I choose to go after first turns out to be G10 and the other E, I'm not going to switch targets mid-pass. When I have advantage over bandits, I choose the fight I want. I may decide to engage the later war plane 1st, or may go for the early war plane first, but like I said, it depends a lot on relative position, E states, AOT, etc.

If I'm defensive, it's pretty much the same thing. I know I'm not going to out-turn a spit, and don't have much turn advantage on a 109 of any type, so I'm going to want to get fast as I can as quick as I can.

The 190-A8 and D9 argument is another one that makes no sense here. It was easy to tell a D from an A series at ranges further than the new icon tells. Same with D from TA152.

Really, I think the anti-icon crowd are the ones in the furballs trying to pick off newbies, because it's only in a furball / horde where the newbies who couldn't tell the difference between planes before were located. Now some "vet" who used to do well in a 109E in a furball thinks that the newbies are all the sudden going to realize the difference between an E and a G just because the icon tells them the exact type. The fact is, most of them barely know the difference between a Spit and a 109, let alone the difference between two verisions of the same plane.

Another thought is that in AHI, everyone knew which 109 they were fighting against by the paint / skin. There was only one skin for each plane, so it wasn't hard to tell the difference. Before you keep complaining about the types, I'd like to see a K/D chart showing 109 type kills prior to and after the advent of changable skins. Then we can add another chart that shows the same before and after the new icon system...

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #103 on: February 20, 2005, 11:10:32 PM »
Actually it is because of AH1 that I hardly ever fly the G-2.  I'd jump back and forth between the F-4 and the G-10, but the G-2 had those blue swastikas out on the wings that just screamed "I'm a G-2!".

I actually never learned to tell the F-4 and the G-10 apart, the G-6 and the G-2 were pretty easy.

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #104 on: February 21, 2005, 12:12:14 AM »
Quote
You can't make some comparison between AH furballing and what was done by Marseille.


I can't and I didn't. What I said was that a highly maneuverable single aircraft can get lost in a furball.

I'll quote it again for you:

Quote
In the visual conditions in the main (meaning SA because icons at a glance can give away much more info then pilots would have in real life) a highly maneuvering single aircraft can get into a fur ball and in fact become 'hidden' while right out in the open.


It's quite similar to what is attributed to Marseille in this quote:

Quote
Tactics - That's where Marseille marked himself as a great innovator of air warfare, and he kept improving. He claimed that in the perfect visual conditions over the desert, large formations are in a visual disadvantage against highly maneuvering single aircraft. He preferred to fight alone, with a single wingman providing warnings from a safe distance. He claimed that when fighting alone in a short range dogfight, he could quickly fire at anything he saw, while the attacked formation's pilots were confused, hesitated, and switched to a defensive position that further increased the lone attacker's chances.


It would seem the inability to follow a discussion is squadron wide with you fellows...

It's your squad mate's contention that this type of 'hiding' is 'gamey' when in fact it's closer to real life then 'exact plane type icons'. I can provide quotes from Ostfront vets who make the same claims. So I don't know what you read but my point seemed clear to me.

Quote
Your argument about The Spit 1 being targeted, just because the icon now identifies it is lame. The difference is very easy to see at the leading edge of the wing,,, cannons or no cannons. People could always see that anyway.


Non-sense in the example I used above about the 109 E applies equally to a Spit 1. With a Spit 1 closing you look back and see the 'Spit' icon you couldn't see those cannons from front profile view.

Quote
As for the 109 argument, to me it's mute also. If I see 2 109s flying together, I'm going to engage the one that I feel I have the biggest advantage over at the moment so I can get 1 killed and change the odds as fast as possible. If the one I choose to go after first turns out to be G10 and the other E, I'm not going to switch targets mid-pass. When I have advantage over bandits, I choose the fight I want. I may decide to engage the later war plane 1st, or may go for the early war plane first, but like I said, it depends a lot on relative position, E states, AOT, etc.


Everyone knows how your squad flies. All this has been covered before and has nothing to do with my point as I illustrated it above in regards to the affect that the new icons may have on early birds..

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The 190-A8 and D9 argument is another one that makes no sense here. It was easy to tell a D from an A series at ranges further than the new icon tells. Same with D from TA152.


Is that addressed to me? If so it's another irrelevant point that has nothing to with anything I mentioned. I was  discussing specifically the effect of the icons on very early war aircraft. If you are confused go back and re-read my replies.

Quote
Really, I think the anti-icon crowd are the ones in the furballs trying to pick off newbies, because it's only in a furball / horde where the newbies who couldn't tell the difference between planes before were located. Now some "vet" who used to do well in a 109E in a furball thinks that the newbies are all the sudden going to realize the difference between an E and a G just because the icon tells them the exact type. The fact is, most of them barely know the difference between a Spit and a 109, let alone the difference between two versions of the same plane.

Another thought is that in AHI, everyone knew which 109 they were fighting against by the paint / skin. There was only one skin for each plane, so it wasn't hard to tell the difference. Before you keep complaining about the types, I'd like to see a K/D chart showing 109 type kills prior to and after the advent of changable skins. Then we can add another chart that shows the same before and after the new icon system...


The later 109s are and will always be competitive in AH. They have everything that makes a good fighter, a fine mix of good acceleration, climb rate and maneuverability. It's just as easy to look at the AH1 109 skins and tell the 109s apart as it is in AH2 with custom skins. There are visual cues that give them away. I haven't said anything about that about that. The Emil in AH1 had an obvious yellow nose but most people re-act to the icon because its the most obvious visible cue.

The point with the Emil and the other early birds is that the same type of complaint that originated with the specific plane type icon being a magnet for gangers may also apply to those early aircraft. As I said above the effective kill range for these types of planes are much closer then the later aircraft. As such 'time in gun solution' is important. The Spit 1 tag will mean a neg g to nose low extension is all that's needed to escape. Folks will react to the specific tag differently then they would a generic 'Spit' tag making flying the Spit 1 more pointless then it is now.

But as I said above:

Quote
Whatever the reason for this change it's impact will be on earlier variants such as the Spit 1, Hurri 1 and Emil etc. Its not like you see a lot of those anyway but I would guess you will see even less.

While you may go after any enemy that's closest the majority of players in AH are not Levi. As I said the 'horde' follows the path of least resistance. That's why you see the hordes in the first place.

But as long as the majority are having fun who cares...


Rare things grab attention over the mundane every day things. Thats is my point in my replies on the topic of the new icons.

No where did I ask for flying tips, and I sure wouldn't ask them from members of your squad. We simply don't any commonality in the planes we fly or how we fly them.

Another ghey 'wall o'text'  I know but if I don't spell every thing out in exact detail some of these folks get extremely confused.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2005, 12:16:32 AM by Wotan »