Japanese Defence Force in Iraq

[Meatwad]

The japanese will not be willing to attack unless this is seen in Iraq






LOOK IT GODZILLA!!!

[Bluedog]

Originally posted by Rolex
Obviously this is just too hard to grasp. Let's try one sentence:

They are constitutionally prohibited from acting as a military force outside of Japan.

OK, so Japan isnt allowed to send her troops anywhere.

So please explain the presence in Iraq of Japanese military engineers.
Or am I way off track here, and they are in fact civilian engineers who just happen to be Japanese, not a military engineering corps unit.(Sure looked like JDF equiment and markings on TV)

Its fine by me if they deploy troops to Iraq, but why the half measure? Dont we trust them to behave themselves? Worried about the Greater Middle Eastern Co-prosperity Sphere?

All or nothing, either let them deploy their own troops, or don't let them deploy anyone.

After all, we are talking about ~500 soldiers here, it's not like they are going to suddenly jack up and try and over run Iraq or anything.

A bit of a slap in the face to the Japanese isnt it?  "Yes, we will gladly recieve your help with the engineers, but don't even think about deploying any basic infantrymen to ensure their safety while they help"

BTW, the reason Aussie taxpayers are pissed off is because our PM has just proved himself to be a blatant liar.(not that that was ever really in doubt, he is, after all,a politician )
It was only a few weeks ago he was promising not to send any more troops overseas.




Gunslinger :  That's pretty much the conclusion I came to, they are engineers, they build stuff, fix it, or blow it up, infantry combat is not their role, where the guys we are sending are a rapid deployment force, trained in infantry combat, patrolling, security measures, counter-insurgency tactics etc. etc. and will be filling a role for which they are fully prepared, equiped and trained.
The part I dont get is that the Japanese no doubt have infantrymen of the same calibre, why is it OK to deploy engineers to a foriegn country, but not the troops to keep 'em safe.

Bit of an honour for Australia that they specifically requested Aussie troops though.

[Bluedog]

By the way, I think its about time Japan got the opportunity to show the world that the past is the past, and that Japanese forces are quite capable of being deployed wherever there is a need for them, without people worrying that they might try to take over the world or anything.

Iraq is the ideal place for that to happen, or certainly a better place than somewhere that was either occupied by, or fought over by Japanese forces in WWII.

I can see that sending Japanese troops as peace keepers to somewhere like Korea, or the Phillipines may not be exactly wellcomed by the locals, but the Middle East has no such history of conflict with the Japanese, and could benefit greatly by the use of some of their technical expertise. lets face it, its rather obvious Japanese engineers know their stuff.




 after third edit attempt So I cant spell, just shoot me

[Glasses]

I know this the insurgents will probably get....JAPWNED!

I said before and I say again Just wait until the Japanese  release their Super Dimensional Fortress Macross!!!

[Rolex]

I don't think too many people would disagree that they should be able to support their own engineers, Bluedog. Most Japanese agree with that.

Unfortunately, their constitution does not allow them to deploy a (fighting) military force overseas. How many times have I said that now?

Maybe I should say it again just in case someone still doesn't get it.

The constitution does not allow them to deploy a military (as in fighting) force overseas.

They are not allowed to participate as a military force in a military coalition outside of Japan either.

Until their constitution is changed, the cannot deploy a military force overseas. Maybe I should say it again, because it still seems to be difficult to comprehend:

The constitution does not allow them to deploy a military (as in fighting) force overseas.

Should I say it again?  

[JB88]

the one that we helped them write.

[Rolex]

Actually, no, 88. It was written in English by a committee appointed by General MacArthur and translated into Japanese for the Diet to approve. While a few Japanese were consulted during the drafting of it, none of their input was included. It was approved as written, which is what the defeated nation accepted as their fate.

[-tronski-]

Originally posted by Bluedog
By the way, I think its about time Japan got the opportunity to show the world that the past is the past, and that Japanese forces are quite capable of being deployed wherever there is a need for them, without people worrying that they might try to take over the world or anything.

Iraq is the ideal place for that to happen, or certainly a better place than somewhere that was either occupied by, or fought over by Japanese forces in WWII.

I can see that sending Japanese troops as peace keepers to somewhere like Korea, or the Phillipines may not be exactly wellcomed by the locals, but the Middle East has no such history of conflict with the Japanese, and could benefit greatly by the use of some of their technical expertise. lets face it, its rather obvious Japanese engineers know their stuff.
I]after third edit attempt[/I] So I cant spell, just shoot me

To be honest Bluey, I asked the question cause it didn't really add up to me that the Japanese would deploy 800 odd engineers and totally rely on foreign protection without also deploying an integral defensive component. Our diggers are being sent to replace the 1200 dutch soldiers (who are withdrawing out of Iraq) and the British who were going to replace them requested (with the Japanese) us to help their already stretched responsibilties.

I have many issues with this new deployment...obviously Johnny further increasing our numbers whilst denying that it would happen is just more typical howard arse licking...the only difference it's not the americans this time.

But to be honest I am really uncomfortable that Australian soldiers are being sent to Iraq to protect Japanese engineers when there are still so many old diggers who suffered greatly under the hands of the Japanese as POWS. This is obviously more an emotive response than common sense as Australian soldiers are second to none, and the Japanese recognise this themselves, and consider our relationship to strong enough to make such a request. After all this isn't even the first time Australian diggers have served along side the Japanese... (as recent as East Timor INTERFET/UNTAET)

 Tronsky

[Bluedog]

I know where you're coming from Tronski, I struggled with that whole concept myself, more than one member of my family died by Japanese hands, and not all of them in combat.
No doubt most of the young blokes they are sending over have similar family histories, and if they themselves have no problem with it, then I cant see that I have a right to.

I think that the right to be angry at, or hate the Japanese for what they did, belongs to those old Diggers you spoke of, and will die completely with the last of them when they pass.
They earned that right with their blood, for us to assume it and continue, would be to cheapen their efforts and sacrifices.

A Milne Bay veteran once said to me  "I will never forgive them, or forget what they did, but you son, you should forgive them, and remember us, we fought to stop the war, not continue it. I have the right to hate, I earned it in New Guinea, you young blokes have a right to the freedom we bought for you, dont waste it on hate, it was too expensive for that"
It made me feel ashamed when he said that, and I have never forgotten it, and never will.
I think he was a very wise man.


BTW, I had no idea Japan had sent troops to Timor, I would have thought it would be one of the places that they were less than wellcome in a military sense.

[Bluedog]

Rolex, I fully understand that the Japanese arent allowed to use their armed forces in an aggresive manner, but I do not understand why the distinction between that and providing their own integral security when on deployments such as this isnt made, it is quite obviously an entirely differant thing.
Further, if their constitution is so rigid in this regard and cannot be altered, why then are they allowed to send anyone at all, engineers are still soldiers, and are indeed a military force.
Further again, if this whole deployment is a way of easing the Japanese military back into world affairs, why not allow them the dignity of providing their own defence, it's not as though they would present any threat whatsoever to the Coalition troops in the area, they are sort of outgunned.


Its not really a question, in that I'm not so much looking for an answer, just discussing something which confuses me, and apparently, Im not alone.

[Bluedog]

Originally posted by Otto
Each member if the JDF is a licensed 'Trade Representive' of the Japanese Department of Commerce.   They have the authority to make binding agreements in any form of International Trade and are prepared to offer long and short term solutions to a wide range of problems facing the new Iraqi government.

So really they are Japanese bussinesmen, the whole uniform and 'engineers' thing is just a clever ruse

[Scherf]

Actually Bluedog, you've pretty much got it. It is a clever ruse, and a pretty cynical one at that (Trade Representatives indeed...) about which many Japanese feel upset.

Just as you've pointed out, many folks in Japan would stress that their constitution is rigid in this regard and cannot be altered, and that they should not be allowed to send anyone at all. After all, as you say, engineers are still soldiers, and are indeed a military force.

The government (well, the Liberal Democratic Party, which contains some pretty ancient and powerful hawks), is pushing for a greater international role for Japan, including a seat on the UN Security Council. The presence in Iraq of SDF personnel is one manifestation of that push. They've pushed the SDF into Iraq over the very deep objections of many ordinary Japanese - the very worst thing which could happen, including for the hawks, is for the JDF personnel to become involved in gunfights.



"This is black."

"No, no, it's white."

"Come off it, it's clearly black."

"No, we passed an administrative order which states that, in certain special cases, this will be designated white. This is one such case."




"It's still black though."

[Naso]

Originally posted by Bluedog
"I will never forgive them, or forget what they did, but you son, you should forgive them, and remember us, we fought to stop the war, not continue it. I have the right to hate, I earned it in New Guinea, you young blokes have a right to the freedom we bought for you, dont waste it on hate, it was too expensive for that"

WOW.

[Glasses]

I mean if we don't let the Japanese have a military force how else could we see gigantic robotic battle space suits.


Huh,huh?

[Meatwad]

I wouldnt mind having a Gundam as an recreation vehicle.