Dunkirk and the BoB

[GScholz]

Originally posted by Guppy35
You argument would suggest that given a 1 v 1 situation, that Hartmann would defeat a Johnny Johnson, Richard Bong, etc. without question. There's no way to know that, just because the number of combat encounters was so much greater for Hartmann.  ACM is ACM.

Again, the pilots writing about it, regardless of country, talk about a peak time where the experience is coupled with the aggressiveness, and how after a time that balance was lost due to fatigue, stress, etc. and they were not at their best despite the experience.

Putting words in my mouth again. "Without question" is a phrase that has no plase in air combat. Nothing is given. However I would put my money on Hartmann, that's for sure.

No at times the fatigue affected them and they were not at their best, however I would expect that even in such a condition they were better than most.

You'd have to be pretty fricken amazing just to survive in the LW at the end of the war, nevermind racking up kills.

[BUG_EAF322]

I put my money on a well trained japanese fighter pilot.

1 on 1 they where the best.

Why does nobody mention them ??

[GScholz]

Their planes sucked a**

[Angus]

Hehe.
Anyway, as for Pilot quality, bear in mind that many of the LW experten were shot down several times, but could always ditch or bale in friendly territory.
Also bear in mind that many of the LW fighter jocks never had to do a ground attack job!
Rudorffer got shot down like 17 times, Rall 8 times, etc etc.
Johnsson didn't

Hartmann crashed in one of his first military plane takeoff, and spent his first combat mission chasing his own wingman

F.O. Jonsson, the only Icelandic fighter pilot was jumped by two 109's in his first combat flight. Although being alone he managed to evade them for long enough for help to arrive. A long fight with the fuel needle falling and falling. He emerged without damage, only to be going for a ground attack job the next day. From there he received bullet holes, - from a barge!

My point is, these things are not that absolute, it's mostly the cirkumstancial setup that rules the statistics.

BTW, the top scoring RAF ace had 15 kills in a Biplane

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Karnak
Do you seriously contend, as Barbi did, that even if the UK or USA had been in Germany's situation that some British or American pilots would not have climbed into the hundreds of kills?

If Britain had been under heavy daylight attack for years, with her pilots always able to bail to friendly territory?

Of course they would, just as Germany did.  Barbi sees it otherwise though.  He sees it as an afirmation of the inferiority of the Allied nations.

Karnak,

May I ask you why you behave as pathetic, putting words into my mouth, then disproving "my" words? Also, may I ask what is the reason of you calling other men with cute, girly names...? I don`t like you, so try this maybe in the proper bar.

And BTW, why do you hate Germans so much? Is this something personal? You seem to spit out hatred on any Axis achievement during WW2, you deny that they were good at anything. In every post. Reading your posts, Karnak, makes everyone believe the german military was an inferior race from stone age, a stupid horde that failed in every field and ww2 was about the valiant anglo-saxon knights besting them in every way, messacring them en masse at their pleasure.

Even this post of yours contain nothing more than
a, making up lies
b, assuring everybody that Germany was never any better in any field than the Allies.
I think the ones who`s vision is not so much distorte by hatred as yours would agree that there were fields,like radar applications, where the Allies proved better and fields where the Germans did. Same goes for the crews, I suppose no German destroyer`s captain ever sank as many subs as the top Allied ones.. normal people can accept that just as well that the achievements of LW aces are unmatched.

But even mentioning this simple fact creates waves of overwhelming inferiority complex in you, Guppy, and Angus. You can`t put up with the facts. You can`t accept it happened like this. You began to argue about who`s pilot`s were better, something nobody even mentioned until the help-my-allied-di*k-is-too-small-so-I compensate guys showed up... It`s YOU who argue that x pilot was NOT better than y pilot. It`s YOU who argue that there was nothing special in the Experten, but WE don`t say they were superman.

As for your assumption, that the RAF could mount the same achievements if pitted in the same conditions... I don`t know if they could. I know they did not.

"If Britain had been under heavy daylight attack for years, with her pilots always able to bail to friendly territory? Of course they would, just as Germany did."

As if we get back on subject, and leave behind your bad-mouthing-having-nothing-to-do-with-the-subject-primitive-personal-attacks, we find that http://www.luftwaffe.cz/bob.html the top 3 RAF pilots could not get a total of 111 victories during BoB... whateve the reason for this, I don`t know, but these are the bare facts you need to put up with instead of coming here and making your lies about me, because it gets f. boring over time.

[Angus]

Hehe, Izzy, you also hate the RAF:
"the top 3 RAF pilots could not get a total of 111 victories during BoB"
True. They won the BoB though
Maybbe it was cos they only had .303's?

Anyway, the BoB is a different field from the later campaign into Germany, for a quite obvious reason you always choose to forget.
The word is DISTANCE over enemy territory, and TIME on the plotting table.
Many RAF interceptions in the BoB were made under enemy aircover, and many of them were uphill all the way.
If the LW would have had to cruise for 2 hours on the plotting table before launching the attacks the outcome might have been a tad different.

[Kurfürst]

Any more excuses for the facts , angie ?

[Angus]

I have nothing to EXCUSE

[Angus]

Oh, LW top aces in the BoB?
Mölders, Galland, and whatwashisnameagain....Wick?

BTW, who were the Top RAF aces anyway, Frantisek I remember, but haven't got the other one in my head.

BTW, was that 111 number the combined score of the three top LW guns, right?

[Seeker]

"Reading your posts, Karnak, makes everyone believe the german military was an inferior race from stone age, a stupid horde that failed in every field and ww2 was about the valiant anglo-saxon knights besting them in every way, messacring them en masse at their pleasure."

We Anglo Saxons are Germanic in origin; Barbi; WWII can almost be seen as the last civil war of the Germanic tribes.

But if you get a thrill out of pretending we value (or even notice) Slavs (or should that be slaves?) such as yourself thinking they made a difference to one side or the other; then that's alright; we'll try not to giggle.

After all; we're polite to Italians; and I'm sure you guys tried just as  hard to be significant.

[Karnak]

Barbi,

Originally posted by Karnak
The Germans had excellent pilots and their top pilots were great.  No arguement.

[MiloMorai]

This was just posted by a mod on the forum, http://www.1jma.dk/default.asp - WW2 > Sea Lion vs. Overlord thread.

I am editing this thread in the interests of Kurfurst's Health. We don't want you to get a heart attack, kurfurst.

Please email me where anyone here has posted any statement that the Whermacht were a bunch of fools, bumping in to each other, for a start. Everybody except you has been discussing this in quite a reasonable and rational way[/b], and I see no reason for you to go off like a suicide bomb

[Angus]

Well, a little work will strengthen the heart, right?

Ok, I'll tell ya something....a confession

My wife is German, and my kid is then, - half German.
German is the main language in the home.
I correspond with LW historians, I fly LW planes very much in AH, I go to Germany every year, I just spoke with my German Sister-in-law and her husbond, I am about to eat a German meal, and then I am off again reading Gunther Rall's "Mein Flugbuch" in German.

Still, choosing the top three preferred dinnermembers from this thread, I'd go for Dan, Milo and Karnak

Wonder how that will treat my heart

[Karnak]

Barbi,

Just to add a bit to my quickie above, I'd like to say that there are a lot of things about the WWII German military that I respect or like.  I just don't see them as superior soldiers opposed by bumbling Englishmen.  I see all sides merely as humans.

An example here are some of my posts in the General Forum thread about the new Fw190 screenshots:

Originally posted by Karnak
That 190 is looking really nice.

Not meaning to be greedy, but I really like the look of the Fw190's cockpit.  Would it be possible to get a look at the rudder pedals and throttle setup, e.g. the lower parts of the cockpit?

Thanks.

Followed by GRUNHERZ' comment I immediately posted:

Originally posted by Karnak

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Yep, a look at the side consoles would be awesome.. Pleez..

Yup.  Fw190s have the best cockpit of any WWII fighters.  The Me410 and Me262 are nice as well, but the Fw190 takes it by a good margin.  Definately my favorite cockpit. [/B]

The Fw190's cockpit is a wonderful example of a design intended for fighting.  It minimizes the pilot's flying tasks so he can concentrate on fighting the enemy and not fiddling with his aircraft.

British cockpits, by comparison, seem slapped together with relative little thought given to making the pilot's task easier.  The best that can really be said is that they don't make the pilot's task harder either, that gets left to the P-38.  Nonetheless, the way I would describe British cockpits would be "Unfinished prototypes that were allowed into production aircraft."  Japanese aircraft cockpits are, generally, even worse than British cockpits.  I do not know enough about Russian cockpits to say for sure, but given Russian design principals from the time period in question I don't hold high hopes.  I do know that the Lavochkin fighters suffered engine fumes in the cockpit, something that none of the other major powers would have accepted to service.  American cockpits are second to the Germans.  The Americans tried to make the pilot's job easier, though without the success of the Fw190 series.  The P-38 is a standout exception in the other direction.

I have never claimed the Germans were inferior or that I hated them, which I manifestly do not.  I have only used your own positions against you.  You will note that no where in this thread did I ever make a single claim of relative skill between German pilots and the pilots of any other nation and my only comment about the skill of German pilots was that they were excellent and that their top pilots were unarguably great.

My claim in this thread was merely that put in like circumstances some American or British pilots would also have amassed kills counted in the hundreds.  This claim does not say that they did, it does not say that any given pilot would have and it does not impinge the German pilots who actually did do it.

[Angus]

Second that!