Author Topic: Dunkirk and the BoB (Read 2145 times)

KurfÃ¼rst · « **Reply #45 on:** March 31, 2005, 04:55:02 AM »

Karnak, if you are so free of hatred and hold yourself an honest man, can you answer why you keep putting phrases into my mouth, constantly crying in all forums about my allaged statements? Especially in view that I rejected these statement of YOURS numerous times?

Ie. what is the base for this. Where did I stated such?

Do you seriously contend, as Barbi did, that even if the UK or USA had been in Germany's situation that some British or American pilots would not have climbed into the hundreds of kills?

Or this :

Of course they would, just as Germany did. Barbi sees it otherwise though. He sees it as an afirmation of the inferiority of the Allied nations.

Can you find a post from me that would contain such statement, or you admit you intentionally misrepresented my position? Or will you continue this dishonest behaviour? Perhaps you are in as much in a need of outside help interpreting your posts as I do. I can certainly help if you need. It`s your choice wheter you want to behave honest and dishonest. Well after all, I don`t see if there could be any honest goal with misrepresenting my posts. I also suggest you to get off calling men girly names. Other than it can lead to bad gossips, it can lead to absance from this BBS. Thank you for your attention.

MiloMorai · « **Reply #46 on:** March 31, 2005, 06:27:34 AM »

For this board's info

origin of Barbi

Kurfy's old nick was Barbarossa Isegrim. Other shortened nicks where Babs and Barb.

So don't get all wet eyed with compassion due to his moaning, for Barbi is a legit nick for him that goes back several years.

.....................

Quote

Where did I stated such?

In every single last post that you preach the superiority on German man and machine while putting down British and American man and machine.

The only one that has shown any hatred and bigorty is you Barbi. "Everybody except you has been discussing this in quite a reasonable and rational way."

KurfÃ¼rst · « **Reply #47 on:** March 31, 2005, 06:47:25 AM »

Wheter it is name calling or 'legit' nickname is up to me to decide. I decide that it`s just an offense, name calling and flaming. Name calling and flaming will draw the attention of moderators, same goes with personal attacks like accusing with BS like this 'German superiority' thing. And as I think of it, Karnak and Milo performance in this thread is little else than unprovoked personal attacks. I think both of you have received a fair warning.

GScholz · « **Reply #48 on:** March 31, 2005, 06:54:19 AM »

Quote him or shut up. I get tired of seeing these "You're just an anti-'whatever I am'" arguments. Some people here do have a bad tendency of putting words in other peoples mouths and extrapolating some sort of "greater agenda" out of a number of unrelated posts.

If you accuse someone for saying something, quote them ... or shut the f*** up.

Seeker · « **Reply #49 on:** March 31, 2005, 06:58:30 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by GScholz
Some people here do have a bad tendency of putting words in other peoples mouths and extrapolating some sort of "greater agenda" out of a number of unrelated posts.

If you accuse someone for saying something, quote them ... or shut the f*** up.

You have a quote verifiying your accusation?

Gotcha

GScholz · « **Reply #50 on:** March 31, 2005, 07:32:14 AM »

I didn't mention any names.

Karnak · « **Reply #51 on:** March 31, 2005, 10:55:36 AM »

Kurfürst,

I use your old nickname "Barbi" because that is what you used when I first encountered you. I do so for continuity's sake, just as I continued to call Wotan "Wotan", even when he was going by a different nickname. It keeps things straight about who is who. The nickname "Barbi" is completely removed from any feminine context when I use it for you. Also the "ü" is really annoying to type.

To sum it up I don't much like people changing their online names to get a fresh start. We are the reputations that we build. I am "Karnak" on every board I post on. Like me or not, I don't hide.

As for the quote GScholz, here you go:

Quote

Originally posted by Kurfürst
Quote
Originally posted by Furball[/i]
Johnnie Johnson shot down 38 single engined fighters, not sure how that breaks up 109/190 though.

Not one of them was a bomber, eh? Hard to believe. [/b]
Quote
Originally posted by Furball
Its hard to get victories when the airforce you are supposed to be fighting is nowhere to be seen. Allied pilots could go through entire combat tours and see German aircraft 2 or 3 times.

Yeah-yeah, the old boring excuse. Funny though that somehow the LW had no problem finding the RAF... I mean, how is that Galland found&shot down about 90 planes in just up to 1941... those 90 planes certainly met Galland.. and lost every time. The highest scoring of the RAF, Johnson wasn`t able to score even one half of that during the 6 years. There must be reason for that. Now of course you will say it was extremely hard to find enemy planes for the RAF`s fighters in 1939, in 1940, in 1941... provided they weren`t looking too hard for the opportunity! I still wonder how could the LW meet RAF planes, if the RAF planes didn`t meet LW planes. A mystery to me.[/b]

Not only is he quite comfortable potificating about how unskilled RAF aces are despite not knowing something basic about them such as Johnnie Johnson's kills were all single engined fighters but he also utterly rejects the opportunity argument put forth by Furball. That is what I was refering to in my earlier posts.

Honestly, Kurfürst comes across as somebody who has intensely studdied something he likes (Bf109s, Luftwaffe operations, Luftwaffe pilots) and not studied the other stuff at all and just satisfied himself with a cursory glance (Spitfires, P-51s, Americans, British). What is so irritating about Kurfürst is not that he likes the Bf109 or Luftwaffe so much, but that he seems utterly incapable of admitting any fault in the things he likes or admitting any strength in the things he doesn't care for. It creates a very imbalanced perspective, as is seen in nearly every one of his posts.

Angus · « **Reply #52 on:** March 31, 2005, 12:24:19 PM »

I call it brown sunglasses

MiloMorai · « **Reply #53 on:** March 31, 2005, 12:53:59 PM »

Quote

Honestly, Kurfürst comes across as somebody who has intensely studdied something he likes (Bf109s, Luftwaffe operations, Luftwaffe pilots) and not studied the other stuff at all and just satisfied himself with a cursory glance (Spitfires, P-51s, Americans, British). What is so irritating about Kurfürst is not that he likes the Bf109 or Luftwaffe so much, but that he seems utterly incapable of admitting any fault in the things he likes or admitting any strength in the things he doesn't care for. It creates a very imbalanced perspective, as is seen in nearly every one of his posts.

So true and when people do post, he goes off on a beserker rant calling them trolls and flamers.

Karnak, BarbI should have an upper case 'I' at the end. People just got lazy in doing so.

GScholz · « **Reply #54 on:** March 31, 2005, 08:22:01 PM »

I don't need the quote Karnak, but Kurfurst does. Now he has a chance to refute it if he wants/can. Accusations without evidence is called slander, and you cant defend yourself against slander.

hogenbor · « **Reply #55 on:** April 01, 2005, 01:25:09 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
What is so irritating about Kurfürst is not that he likes the Bf109 or Luftwaffe so much, but that he seems utterly incapable of admitting any fault in the things he likes or admitting any strength in the things he doesn't care for.

Ok, I can't resist it. I think you are absolutely right Karnak.

I have been a WWII aviation enthousiast for what is it now, 25 years? I always thought I knew an awful lot about it. Since I started playing AH and reading these boards I found out that I don't know nearly as much as I thought. I also learned that a lot of what I knew was wrong, or at least hotly debated. Quite a lot of gentlemen here bash each other with document A, book B or pilot account C. Who will tell which one is right? You weren't there. We can only speculate and dig up even more documents and add even more controversy

Never mind, I considered it an amusing and harmless hobby for a few middle aged people

That having said, it stops being amusing when people start calling each other names, twist words out of context and dig up ancient posts to prove who knows what. I have been slammed (or ignored, I don't know what's worse) about ranting about the rudeness that is often encountered here.

Considering Kurfürst, Isegrim, BarBi or what he calls himself, he is plainly obsessed by the fact that the 109 and the LW HAVE to be the best. There seems to be no other reason for him to live than that. He collects the data that is most favourable and ignores or misinterprets other sources, calling them biased, inaccurate or worse. We do have to ask ourselves, who is the one that is biased here? Every time something 109 related comes up I fear him joining the party. Discussion is one thing but trying to outshout and ignore the others is... I don't know what word to use really.

Anecdote: In may 1940 obsolete Dutch Fokker D-21 fighters (slow radial engined monoplanes with a fixed undercarriage) tangled with an equal numer of Bf-109E's. Legend has it that 4 or 5 109's were shot down for the loss of only 1 D-21.

Edit:

It is quite rare that a person admits that he was wrong here. Still admitting that one's wrong is one of life greatest virtues. So if I ever visit Hungary and meet Kurfürst and find out he is amiable and reasonable person after all... I'll gladly take him to an aircraft museum and drink a few beers with him. Only thing I'm worried about is that he'll set fire to every Spitfire present or at least starts a soapbox rant in front of the resident 109, while 'correcting' the information on the plaque beside it with a marker.

Angus · « **Reply #56 on:** April 01, 2005, 03:22:55 AM »

Hehe, I'll second that one.
Quite frustrating really, for I am trying to collect REAL performance data to-date, that is what were the aircraft that actually met in the air in a certain timeframe performing like.
Getting data for the 109 seems to be the toughest part, for some guys like BarbI always rise up with something twisted. I could put up a long list of things I've seen on these boards that are to prove that the 109 is UBER in almost every aspect. So, I rather go to other sources.
Will post what I find, but the funny part is that my findings always get debated, although they are straight from anecdotes or flight tests.
Anyway, back to Johnny Johnsson.
I think (From memory) that all his kills were single engine fighters, and most or all over enemy territory.
He once duelled with a whole staffel of 109's actually. He managed to outclimb them in high banking turns, and once his second stage of the supercharger jumped in, he easily outran them.
Ooops, was that a bait or a troll?

hogenbor · « **Reply #57 on:** April 01, 2005, 03:57:04 AM »

I am not a researcher Angus, I just like to read everything that comes my way

I do however understand that accurate 109 data is hard to come by, but what I am missing the most is German evaluations of captured allied aircraft. There is a book by an ex-test pilot, I believe it is something called 'Test pilot auf beuteflugzeugen' (Test pilot for captured airplanes). There are a lot of anecdotes in it, it's a good read (I have the German version but it has been translated as well). There is sadly only one evaluation report in there, of a captured La-5. I've seen that on these boards too. Would be so nice to have a bit more! I would expect the Finns have evaluated quite of lot of Russian equipment as well.

Angus · « **Reply #58 on:** April 01, 2005, 04:17:33 AM »

I have some quotes where Germans give their opinion of captured Spitfires, and Rall's quote on the Spitfire, P51 and P38.
Somewhere on my HD I have something about hybrid aircraft and their performance. (Hurris and Spits with DB engine).
Will see if I can find it andpost.
Anyway, just dug into Johnsson's list.
He opened his account in 1941 and closed it in 1944. He damaged a Ju88 on the ground and a Do17 in the air as well as a 110, but the rest are all 109's and 190's. 109's are close to 25.
Note that he flew untill sping 1945, but his last kill is in sept 1944.
The LW aircraft were hard to find in the last months of WW2.
Pat pattle tops him with total kills though, which are about 50, all with a Gladiator and a Hurricane!
Will post some more candy later.

hogenbor · « **Reply #59 on:** April 01, 2005, 05:16:51 AM »

Hi Angus,

If you can post the LW comments on allied aircraft that would be great. I knew that they put a DB in a Spit V but not that they did that in a Hurricane too. Curious of what they thought of that one, with it's 'old fashioned' construction and thick wings. Still, the Brits shot down quite a lot of 109's down with it

Kind regards,

Ronald