Dunkirk and the BoB

[Angus]

Hello again.
The modded Hurricanes were for Yugoslavia I think. They bought the airframe from the Brits and the DB's from the Germans.
Performance was actually quite a bit better than the original Hurricane!
I'll see if that website is still alive and post a link if it is, - otherwise I'll try to host it later on since I am opening my own file directory online.

[Angus]

AHHH, found it!!!!
Here you go

http://www.unrealaircraft.com/hybrid/hybrid.php

hope it works

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Angus
Getting data for the 109 seems to be the toughest part, for some guys like BarbI always rise up with something twisted. I could put up a long list of things I've seen on these boards that are to prove that the 109 is UBER in almost every aspect. So, I rather go to other sources.

So, basically your research method is to find data for 109 performance. When you do, there are two options for you :

a, If it shows the 109 in a good light, you call it twisted and ignore it, and seek out for other data until it`s bad enough for your taste

b, Accept the facts as they are, good or bad.


Basically, the problem is that you have build up a preconception in yourself that the 109 was the worst fighter ever, and any fact that refutes this cannot be else but propaganda/twist call it what you like.

Speaking of bias, well.... well, if someone like Angus is convinced a plane was totally useless, and then sees docs/opinion that it was fairly good, what`s your guess what his perception will be? Yup, that the evil guys show the 'crappy plane' as 'uberplane'.
And frankly, why would you expect people like Milo Morai cry about it, his refers to the Bf 109 only as the "Me$$yshlt"... I have to laugh when people like these start to talk about twist and objectiveness, it`s really funny... or just sad.  

But hey, here`s is your chance, I got loads of 109 data, and you can get it and see for yourself. I wonder if facing the reality with your own eyes would change your attitude of calling everything that doesn`t match your preconceptions 'twisted', but I very much doubt so.

I give you an open challange, Angie and Karnak. List if there was any good in the 109. That it had any good qualities. For in all your post, you always work up yourself when someone mentions that it was not complete crap as you propagate all the time, and fanatically attack the persons who disprove it. Oh, and Karnak, I don`t hide. I don`t need to. And I could find better ways to hide other than using the my fav fighters (and everybody knows which one is that) nick as a new one. And considering that my old nick was VO101_Isegrim, I wonder how you come up with the Barbie cr*p. Well until you can learn my nickname correctly, I think I will fail to learn yours. After all, Karkass is just as similiar to Isegrim/Kurfurst as Barbie.

[MiloMorai]

LOL, Barbarossa Isegrim on another of his patented rants.

Oh yes, don't forget you call the Spitfire,  the Sh!!tfire.

You really should get a sense of humour., Laughing does wunders for the constitution.

[Engine]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
I'M NOT BIASED, YOU ARE THE ONE WHO IS THE BIASED!  RAAAAWRRGHHHULKRAGE

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
You really should get a sense of humour., Laughing does wunders for the constitution.

That`s why all of us read your posts, Milo, you are one very entertaining person to laugh at.

[Angus]

BarbI:
you're speaking of yourself.
I am not your mirror image with Spitfire instead of 109.
But when guys like you bring data that collides with actual established facts, then I go suspicious and search the original sources.

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
That`s why all of us read your posts, Milo, you are one very entertaining person to laugh at.

Not funny enough since you are still your grumpy self.

[Karnak]

BarbI,

Who here will only accept the worst data for a given aircraft?

I don't think that any one of us, other than you, will accept only the best data for a given aircraft.

Every single time anybody has posted data on any RAF fighter you contest it and post lower numbers.  Any time anybody posts Bf109 performance, unless it is the highest possible number, you contest it and post the highest numbers.

Of course when you present the data that way the Bf109 is going to be clearly superior to any other fighter.  Your methods ensure that you get the results that you desire.

[hogenbor]

Data is what it is, just numbers.

I am a test engineer by profession and am trained to create and rely on data that has been gathered under exactly specified, reproducible conditions.

Data manipulation is not alien to me either, you can do wonderful things with colourful graphs to confuse higher management

Anyway, thanks Angus, that link is great. Pure joy.

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Angus
BarbI:
you're speaking of yourself.
I am not your mirror image with Spitfire instead of 109.
But when guys like you bring data that collides with actual established facts, then I go suspicious and search the original sources.

"Actual Established facts?"
Like, yours?

Re-read my descripition of you Angus, and Karkass. That`s you. You have your own preconception.

You are usually presented data that doesn`t fit into your/Karkass`s preconception. Then, instead of revising your POV, your only - very primitive - answer is that it`s not agree with the 'actual established facts'. That`s usually nothing more than your own preconception, a loosly formed opinion, a mixed up of fiction and reality. When you are asked to back up your 'actual established facts', you are always unable to. It`s the most typical thing from you that you cry out that you will come back with sources soon, and that the last time we heard about it.


And in time, in your frustration you start call people liar, accuse with manipulation of facts, and as in the above pattern, you can never back your accusations with anything. The pathetic pattern of Angus and Karkass failing to behave intelligently, and change their mind under the weight of objective evidence repeats itself. Frustration grows, more accusations, more crying, more stupid threads of Dunkerque/BoB are opened, humilated again with the facts, more crying, more barking, more lies, more pathethic.

That`s the summary of Angie and Karkass`s working on this board.

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Karnak
Who here will only accept the worst data for a given aircraft?

It`s usually you and Angie, you are notorious on this board for this. The 109 is your hate-pet for some unknonw reason.

I don't think that any one of us, other than you, will accept only the best data for a given aircraft.[/B]

Can you back that up, or it`s just the usual barking, lies, accusation?

Every single time anybody has posted data on any RAF fighter you contest it and post lower numbers.  Any time anybody posts Bf109 performance, unless it is the highest possible number, you contest it and post the highest numbers.[/B]

That`s the most laughable BS I ever heard. You are so pathetic Karkass, do you really expect people believing such obviously made up statements?

Back it up or shut up.

Of course when you present the data that way the Bf109 is going to be clearly superior to any other fighter.  Your methods ensure that you get the results that you desire. [/B]

You behave like a paranoid, living in your own fantasy world where there`s a world wide conspiracy about making the 109 look uber. I feel pity for you.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
You behave like a paranoid, living in your own fantasy world where there`s a world wide conspiracy about making the 109 look uber. I feel pity for you.

You're a worldwide conspiracy?



It is just you.  It isn't some mass of world wide acclamation for the Bf109.  It is just you.

Frankly, if you were going by world acclamation you'd think the P-51 and Spitfire were some sort of uber-fighters as they are highly overrated in the the popular media, in so far as they are ever considered.


Incidentally, as your so fond of screaming about unsupported alegations, why don't you show everybody something that I've said to demonstrate my supposed hatred of the Bf109 or Germans.  I'd be interested to see it.

[Angus]

Hello BARBi
Tihi, Karkass & Angie, - nice nice
Anyway, I am absoluteluy honoured to be sharing the same shelf as Karnak, - when it comes to the specifications of Barbi, Izzy or whatever.
As well, the word "preconception" is hence forth discovered, and applies to none better than the one that wielded it, i.e. Barbi itself.
Don't swing the sword you can't handle though.
Established facts are things like the LW gave up the BoB campaign due to high losses, the LW had a hard time during the bombing campaign, LW activity in the last year of the war had nothing like thousands of ready fighters at hand etc.
It may not fit your world, but that's how it was.
And now I'm off to dinner.
Will bash you later.
BTW, if you're in the neighbourhood, you can come to dinner. I will bash you while you are picking yer teeth