Author Topic: 115 men, women and children  (Read 1572 times)

Offline Raider179

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« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2005, 12:02:01 PM »
Looks to be less than 20k...

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

Not sure on the reliability but other sites link to them as the know-all on casualties. THey put it between 16-18,000

Offline JB88

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« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2005, 12:06:22 PM »
link one


WASHINGTON  POST

100,000 Iraq civilians killed in war, study says
Questions raised about small size of research sample

Rob Stein, Washington Post

Friday, October 29, 2004
 

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Washington -- One of the first attempts to independently estimate the loss of civilian life from the Iraqi war has concluded that at least 100,000 Iraqi civilians may have died because of the U.S. invasion.

The analysis, an extrapolation based on a relatively small number of actual documented deaths, indicated that many of the deaths have occurred due to aerial attacks by coalition forces, with women and children being frequent victims, wrote the international team of public health researchers who made the calculations.

Pentagon officials say they do not keep tallies of civilian casualties, and a spokesman said Thursday there is no way to validate estimates by others. The past 18 months of fighting in Iraq have been "prosecuted in the most precise fashion of any conflict in the history of modern warfare," and "the loss of any innocent lives is a tragedy, something that Iraqi security forces and the multinational force painstakingly work to avoid," the spokesman said.

Previous independent estimates of civilian deaths in Iraq have been far lower, never exceeding 16,000, and other experts immediately challenged the new estimate, saying the small number of actual documented deaths upon which it was based made the conclusions suspect.

"The methods that they used are certainly prone to inflation due to overcounting," said Marc Garlasco, senior military analyst for Human Rights Watch, which investigated the number of civilian deaths that occurred during the invasion. "These numbers seem to be inflated."

The estimate is based on a door-to-door survey conducted in September of 988 Iraqi households containing 7,868 people in 33 neighborhoods selected to provide a representative sampling. Two survey teams gathered detailed information about the date, cause and circumstances of any deaths in the 14.6 months before the invasion and the 17.8 months after it, documenting the fatalities with death certificates in most cases.

The project was designed by Les Roberts and Gilbert Burnham of the Center for International Emergency, Disaster and Refugee Studies at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in Baltimore; Richard Garfield of Columbia University in New York; and Riyadh Lafta and Jamal Kudhairi of the Al- Mustansiriya University College of Medicine in Baghdad.

Based on the number of Iraqi fatalities recorded by the survey teams, the researchers calculated that the death rate had increased from 5 percent annually to 7.9 percent since the invasion. That works out to an excess of about 100,000 deaths since the war, the researchers reported in a paper released early by the Lancet, a British medical journal.

The researchers called their estimate conservative because they excluded deaths in Fallujah, a city west of Baghdad that has been the scene of particularly intense fighting and accounted for a disproportionately large number of the deaths in the survey.

"We are quite confident that there's been somewhere in the neighborhood of 100,000 deaths, but it could be much higher," Roberts said.

When the researchers examined the specific causes of the 73 violent deaths collected in the study, 84 percent were due to the actions of coalition forces, although the researchers stressed that none were the result of what would have been considered misconduct. Ninety-five percent were due to air strikes by helicopter gunships, rockets or other types of aerial weaponry.

Forty-six percent of the violent deaths involving coalition forces were men ages 15 to 60, but 46 percent were children younger than 15, and 7 percent were women, the researchers reported.

The researchers and the editors at the Lancet acknowledged that the study had clear limitations, including a relatively small sample of violent deaths that were examined directly and the researchers' reliance on individual memories for some of the information. But the researchers said the findings represented the most reliable estimate to date.

Roberts, the lead researcher from Johns Hopkins, said the timing of the article's release was up to him.

"I e-mailed it in on Sept. 30 under the condition that it came out before the election," Roberts told the Associated Press. "My motive in doing that was not to skew the election. My motive was that if this came out during the campaign, both candidates would be forced to pledge to protect civilian lives in Iraq."
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Offline JB88

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« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2005, 12:07:27 PM »
CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR

part 1.

   
Specials > Iraq in Transition
from the May 22, 2003 edition

Surveys pointing to high civilian death toll in Iraq
Preliminary reports suggest casualties well above the Gulf War.
By Peter Ford | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
BAGHDAD – Evidence is mounting to suggest that between 5,000 and 10,000 Iraqi civilians may have died during the recent war, according to researchers involved in independent surveys of the country.

None of the local and foreign researchers were willing to speak for the record, however, until their tallies are complete.
      
         
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Such a range would make the Iraq war the deadliest campaign for noncombatants that US forces have fought since Vietnam.

Though it is still too early for anything like a definitive estimate, the surveyors warn, preliminary reports from hospitals, morgues, mosques, and homes point to a level of civilian casualties far exceeding the Gulf War, when 3,500 civilians are thought to have died.

"Thousands are dead, thousands are missing, thousands are captured," says Haidar Taie, head of the tracing department for the Iraqi Red Crescent in Baghdad. "It is a big disaster."

By one measure of violence against noncombatants, as compared with resistance faced by soldiers, the war in Iraq was particularly brutal. In Operation Just Cause, the 1989 US invasion of Panama, 13 Panamanian civilians died for every US military fatality. If 5,000 Iraqi civilians died in the latest war, that proportion would be 33 to 1.

US and British military officials insisted throughout the war that their forces did all they could to avoid civilian casualties. But it has become clear since the fighting ended that bombs did go astray, that targets were chosen in error, and that as US troops pushed rapidly north toward the capital they killed thousands of civilians from the air and from the ground.

There are no figures at all for Iraqi military casualties, which Iraqi officials kept secret. One factor that led to many civilian deaths, and which complicates the task of counting them accurately, is that irregular fedayeen militia hid in civilian homes as they fought advancing coalition troops, and dressed as civilians.

Nor are hospital records - kept in the heat of war under intense pressure on doctors and staff - necessarily accurate, some observers warn. That means they probably underestimate the real scale of civilian deaths, although at the same time they may have recorded some combatant casualties as civilian ones.

"We had some figures from hospital sources but we realized very quickly that they were very partial," says Nada Doumani, an official with the International Committee of the Red Cross in Baghdad. "It is very difficult to keep track of everyone who was killed, and we were afraid the numbers could be misinterpreted, so we refrained from giving them out."

"During the war, some people brought bodies to the hospitals to get death certificates; others just buried them where they were found in the street, or in schools," adds Faik Amin Bakr, director of the Baghdad morgue. "I don't think anyone in Iraq could give you the figure of civilian deaths at the moment."

House-to-house survey

The chaos of the war and the confusion that persists in Iraq, where central government is still not functioning, have led one US human rights group with experience in counting civilian casualties in Afghanistan to launch a nationwide house-to-house survey of areas where fighting was fierce.

The Campaign for Innocent Victims in Conflict (CIVIC) has mobilized 150 surveyors to carry out detailed interviews with victims of the war; recording deaths, injuries, and damage to property with a view to securing assistance from US government funds.

A full accounting could take months, says CIVIC coordinator Marla Ruzicka, and the group is still compiling its data. But its volunteers have already recorded more than 1,000 civilian deaths in the southern town of Nasariyah, and almost as many in the capital.

"In Baghdad, we have discovered 1,000 graves, and that is not the final figure," says Ali Ismail, a Red Crescent official. "Every day we discover more" where local residents say civilians were buried.

Researchers say they have found particularly high levels of civilian casualties along the Euphrates River, between Nasariyah and Najaf, where US Marines fought their way toward Baghdad.

"The biggest contrast between Afghan- istan (where an estimated 1,800 civilians died during the US-led campaign there in 2001) and Iraq is that Afghanistan was predominantly an air war and this was a ground/air battle," says Reuben Brigety, a researcher for Human Rights Watch.
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Offline Boroda

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« Reply #48 on: February 28, 2005, 12:08:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AirWölf
Uhh.....hello? Saddam's regime harbored terrorists. Iraq had Al-Qaeda in it to begin with. Bush stated to begind with, "Those who harbor terrorists will be dealt with Justice". "You are either with us, or against us".  There, End of Case.


Then why US gives political asylum and highly-payed government jobs to known Chechen terrorists?

I still want to hear an answer. The only answer so far was "it was an immigration court in Boston who gave Ahmadov political asylum". Then - bomb the bloody court to ashes, isn't it an obvious decision?

Offline JB88

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« Reply #49 on: February 28, 2005, 12:08:24 PM »
PART 2

"Air wars are not flawless, but if you have precision weapons you can do a lot to make them more accurate," he adds. "The same is not yet true of ground combat. It is clear the ground battle took a toll; ground war is nasty."

A focus on cluster bombs

Dr. Brigety and his colleagues in Baghdad say they are especially concerned by the wide use of cluster bombs during the war in Iraq.

They say they have found evidence of "massive use of cluster bombs in densely populated areas," according to Human Rights Watch researcher Marc Galasco, contradicting coalition claims that such munitions were used only in deserted areas.

Dispersing thousands of bomblets that shoot out shards of shrapnel over an area the size of a football field, such weapons become indiscriminate and thus illegal under the laws of war, if used in civilian neighborhoods, Human Rights Watch has argued during past conflicts.

"At one level it is unhelpful to talk about large or small numbers" of civilian casualties, says Brigety. "It is more important to ask if the deaths were preventable."

The combination of cluster-bomb use, inaccurate artillery fire at Iraqi troops concentrated near civilian areas, and street fighting in towns throughout Iraq means that the number of civilian deaths might be as high as 10,000, say two researchers from two different teams who asked not to be identified until the evidence was clearer.

Also waiting for clearer evidence are US government agencies mandated by Congress to assist civilian victims of the war in Iraq.

At the instigation of Sen. Patrick Leahy (D) of Vermont, the Iraq war supplemental bill, signed by President Bush April 16, directs that an unspecified amount of the $2.4 billion appropriated for relief and reconstruction in Iraq should pay for "assistance for families of innocent Iraqi civilians who suffer losses as a result of military operations."

"Perhaps it is impossible to eliminate these kinds of mistakes, but you can do something for the victims after the fact," says Tim Rieser, an aide to Senator Leahy.

Mourning his children

But that is little comfort to Mahmoud Ali Hamadi. Hugging his 18-month-old son, Haidar, to his breast for comfort, he cannot hold back his sobs as he recounts how a US missile that landed by his front gate killed his wife and three elder children on the night of April 5.

"My children were the brightest in the whole school," he recalls, looking fondly at an old family photograph through his tears. "Eleven years I spent raising them, and in one instant I lost them."

Mr. Hamadi's family died in Rashidiya, a village of palm groves and vegetable plots on the banks of the Tigris, half an hour north of Baghdad.

Nearly 100 villagers were killed by US bombing and strafing on April 5, including 43 in one house, for reasons that they do not understand. "There was no military base here," says Hamadi. "We are not military personnel. This is just a peasant village."

The need to provide assistance

Civilian victims of US military action in Afghanistan - identified by a team led by Ruzicka - are also supposed to receive assistance. So far, however, USAID has not disbursed any of that money, citing security risks and other problems in the parts of Afghanistan where the money is meant to be spent.

"We have a responsibility to provide assistance, especially when we were the cause," says Mr. Rieser.

"It is in our interest to make the point that this was not a war against the Iraqi people," he says. Senator Leahy's hope, he adds, is that the aid will "build goodwill for the US, which seems to be shrinking by the day in Iraq."

That would appear to be a vain hope in the case of Hamadi, as he mourns the loss of his family. "The Americans are assassins," he says wearily, his face worn by grief. "I haven't complained to the Americans. What would I get if I complained to them? I have complained only to God."

Iraqi civilian deaths

• Nongovernmental and media organizations have produced widely varying figures on the number of Iraqi civilians killed during the recent conflict. The range is a result of incomplete, unconfirmable, and unavailable information.

• Iraqbodycount.net, a website that draws on media accounts and eyewitness reports, estimates that between 4,065 and 5,223 Iraqi civilians have been killed as a result of coalition military action, both during and after the war.

• A May 15 Associated Press report gives an estimate of 2,100 to 2,600 civilian deaths, without citing sources.

• The US Department of Defense has refused to give any sort of estimate on deaths.

• Two news organizations have produced estimates of civilian casualties in just the Baghdad area by canvassing hospitals and tallying their records. The Los Angeles Times reported on May 18 that probably between 1,700 and 2,700 civilians were killed in and around Baghdad. The Knight Ridder agency published an estimate of between 1,100 and 2,355 on May 4.
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Offline JB88

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« Reply #50 on: February 28, 2005, 12:09:31 PM »
Catholic new times




9,000 civilians killed in Iraq - World - Brief Article
Catholic New Times,  Nov 2, 2003  
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DUBAI -- According to Itar-Tass, from seven to nine thousand civilians were killed in Iraq since the beginning of the U.S. and British operation against the Hussein regime.

The "Iraq Body Count" group of experts from the United States and Britain, headed by a retired American officer, which is now working in Baghdad, claims that the biggest number of losses among the civilian population were caused by air raids on the country's largest cities. As many as 2,700 people were killed by cluster bombs, which were used in the course of at least two hundred operations. The coalition troops, the experts note, did not spare any civilian buildings. They bombed the historically important Abu Hanifa Mosque, a hospital for children in the town of Rutbah, and the Red Crescent Maternity Home in Baghdad. The number of killed civilians increased several-fold over after President Bush's May 1st announcement of the end of large-scale military operations.

COPYRIGHT 2003 Catholic New Times, Inc.
COPYRIGHT 2003 Gale Group
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Offline JB88

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« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2005, 12:10:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Steve
Ummm no it's not irrefutable.  I hereby refute it.
Hussein was aiding therrorists that are at war with our country.

Case closed, now go away.


Prove it.

:)
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Offline OneWordAnswer

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115 men, women and children
« Reply #52 on: February 28, 2005, 12:20:14 PM »

Offline JB88

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« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2005, 12:22:54 PM »
wow, looks like you guys are starting to string things together much like conspiracy theorists that you so despise.

paper boat.

large lake.

911 report, the final authority found no conclusive proof.

the one that bush didnt want to have done...ya, that one.
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Offline OneWordAnswer

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« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2005, 12:34:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by JB88
wow, looks like you guys are starting to string things together much like conspiracy theorists that you so despise.

paper boat.

large lake.

911 report, the final authority found no conclusive proof.

the one that bush didnt want to have done...ya, that one.


Quote
Contacts between Iraqi intelligence agents and Osama bin Laden when he was in Sudan in the mid-1990's were part of a broad effort by Baghdad to work with organizations opposing the Saudi ruling family, according to a newly disclosed document obtained by the Americans in Iraq.

The task force concluded that the document "appeared authentic," and that it "corroborates and expands on previous reporting" about contacts between Iraqi intelligence and Mr. bin Laden



http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/25/politics/25TERR.html

Offline JB88

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« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2005, 12:35:00 PM »
sweeping!
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Offline Zulu7

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« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2005, 01:17:39 PM »
Thats a lot more than one word!



:lol

Offline AirWölf

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« Reply #57 on: February 28, 2005, 02:52:28 PM »
Wow....

     So you think that by attacking Iraq and killing terrorists it makes us bad? You think that Iraq didnt have any Al-qaeda in it? You think that 9/11 was prety much nothing that should have been dealt with? You think that we are in the wrong for doing to those that we had done to us? you think that these terrorists have nothing to do with attacking the US? You also think that terrorists are not going to attack us again? Do you think that we should have said "Now stop that, attacking us is not nice"? Do you NOT think that we are defending our freedom? Well I'll tell you what.
      We are defending our freedom. How would ya like to bet that the US WILL IN FACT, we hit again? There is known knowledge of their plan to attack us again it's a matter of when... Also, By fighting these terrorists, we are lessening their chances of future terrorism in the US. We are also in fact, defending our Freedom and helping the Iraqis. Yes civilians will die, that is a sacrifice in war. WAR IS WAR FRIGGIN MORONS!!! THIS IS NOTHING COMPARED TO WW2! Let's go back to WW2 and bomb cities the way we used to! Then let's see how bad we're doing compared to what was destroyed back then. You can live off of America's fredom and riches all you want but remember one thing, Where does this freedom come from, how to we get it? and how do we keep it? BY DEFENDING IT AND FIGHTING FOR IT!!!!

Offline AirWölf

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« Reply #58 on: February 28, 2005, 02:57:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by JB88
Catholic new times




9,000 civilians killed in Iraq - World - Brief Article
Catholic New Times,  Nov 2, 2003  
new
 
Save a personal copy of this article and quickly find it again with Furl.net. Get started now. (It's free.)

DUBAI -- According to Itar-Tass, from seven to nine thousand civilians were killed in Iraq since the beginning of the U.S. and British operation against the Hussein regime.

The "Iraq Body Count" group of experts from the United States and Britain, headed by a retired American officer, which is now working in Baghdad, claims that the biggest number of losses among the civilian population were caused by air raids on the country's largest cities. As many as 2,700 people were killed by cluster bombs, which were used in the course of at least two hundred operations. The coalition troops, the experts note, did not spare any civilian buildings. They bombed the historically important Abu Hanifa Mosque, a hospital for children in the town of Rutbah, and the Red Crescent Maternity Home in Baghdad. The number of killed civilians increased several-fold over after President Bush's May 1st announcement of the end of large-scale military operations.

COPYRIGHT 2003 Catholic New Times, Inc.
COPYRIGHT 2003 Gale Group


So you think just because there is a Mosque, we can't destroy it? What if the terrorists are hiding in there? what would you do, wait forever for them to come out knowingly that they can stay in there quite some time because we "are too nice to destroy a damn building? Your pathetic. You also seem to think that 3,000 civilians killed is a big thing? Hello!!!!! That is nothing compared to past Major Wars. Your making this seem like that the US is such a murderous country and Military. STFU.

Offline OneWordAnswer

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« Reply #59 on: February 28, 2005, 03:11:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Zulu7
Thats a lot more than one word!



:lol


quote[/size]