Author Topic: Gasoline differences?  (Read 1536 times)

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
Gasoline differences?
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2005, 06:14:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by oboe

In all seriousness, do you consider the jury still out on whether cigarettes cause lung disease?


Ahem... I think the warnings are printed right on the pack. :)
sand

Offline Chairboy

  • Probation
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8221
      • hallert.net
Gasoline differences?
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2005, 06:52:24 PM »
Personally, I like to keep my car fueled with 100LL down at ye' old airport.  Yessir, fastest Buick Regal on this side of the second level parking lot at my office!

mebbe not.  I used to occasionally buy 100LL to run in my motorcycle, other then that, the only engine I use that uses it is made by Lycoming.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
Gasoline differences?
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2005, 06:53:26 PM »
Wolf - Charon & Mora have already said it - Additives.

I have a diesel car, and the additives are even more critical in diesel. You might not notice any difference when driving along smoothly, but those additives could make a difference by avoiding trouble like having your fuel wax due to cold weather, or having problems with clogged injectors.

When I first switched to diesel about 1˝ years ago, I asked a diesel driving friend if I should use any third party additives. He said no, but warned me against being tempted by supermarket fuel which retails much more cheaply than at ordinary filling stations. That's because supermarket fuel is cheap for a reason - the additives might be missing.

Offline LePaul

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7988
Gasoline differences?
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2005, 07:18:06 PM »
Charon,

Years ago I worked at a Saturn dealership.  It seemed they were very adamant about after every service, they'd toss in a bottle of Techron.  Apparently it made a hugr difference with valves, mileage, etc.

Since then, I've always put a bottle in once a month.  Seems to keep the mileage on the up n up.

Offline Charon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3705
Gasoline differences?
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2005, 07:37:08 PM »
Quote
Charon I don't see how you can rightly blame the ethanol lobby for the MTBE disaster, since they were pushing the alternative to MTBE. It sounds like their lobbying backfired.


They were very successful. First off they got an oxygenate mandate as a required solution written into the CAA. The oil industry (except for a few companies with notable MTBE interests) fought this and only asked that the EPA set a performance measure and let the industry provide formulations that meet it. The oil industry lost. There was plenty of ethanol added to gasoline as a result to meet that requirement (in addition to MTBE), particularly around the corn belt. Not the full win they would have liked, but good enough. You kiss 52 cents out of your highway funds for each gallon of ethanol added to gasoline BTW to make it "cost effective," a big subsidy that keeps ADM and the like happy. Your and my tax dollars at work.

They haven't stopped though, and the latest versions of current energy policy have all contained a huge ethanol mandate. They have largely given up on the oxygenate/clean air benefits angle though (since that has been scientifically determined to be a wash in most cases, useful in some wintertime CO requirements and a negative in other “summertime” cases). It is now the "reduce dependence on foreign oil" angle that is pushed. But again, it’s just agribusiness and Washington politics as usual if you look long and hard at the costs and results.

Charon

Offline john9001

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9453
Gasoline differences?
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2005, 07:40:47 PM »
lepaul, i worked in car dealerships for 40 years, the dealer and the techs get a kick back on every bottle of 3rd party additive they "sell", not to say it will do harm, but not to say it will help.

Offline Charon

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3705
Gasoline differences?
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2005, 07:41:10 PM »
Yeah Le Paul, I'm somewhat of a believer now myself. They put on a good dog and pony show to make me one, but third parties in the auto industry seem to support that too and they have no incentive to unless there's a pay off.

The results on the before and after valve stems were fairly significant. I was told one treatment would generate the "after" but I still find that somewhat hard to believe.

[edit: Ah John, that's interesting. I do know they use a certain brand of gasoline when conducting that 100,000 mile emissions testing. I wonder if there isn't something else at work there too :)]

Charon

Offline senna

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1318
Gasoline differences?
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2005, 07:43:25 PM »
All I know is some gas burns better than others. Not kidding ya on this one.

Offline Rino

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8495
Gasoline differences?
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2005, 07:51:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
Personally, I like to keep my car fueled with 100LL down at ye' old airport.  Yessir, fastest Buick Regal on this side of the second level parking lot at my office!

mebbe not.  I used to occasionally buy 100LL to run in my motorcycle, other then that, the only engine I use that uses it is made by Lycoming.


     Can always tell a guy running a regular car on 100LL, he's the
one with the lovely light gray lead deposits coating the inside of
his tailpipe :)
80th FS Headhunters
PHAN
Proud veteran of the Cola Wars

Offline senna

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1318
Gasoline differences?
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2005, 07:56:26 PM »
Hey I got an great idea I'm gona run 100LL in my bike.

Offline john9001

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9453
Gasoline differences?
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2005, 08:09:14 PM »
true story, met a hillbilly once who ran his farm truck on half gas and half diesel, he said "it runs good , but smokes a little" i asked why he did that, he said,"my brother in law works for the county".

explanation, he got the diesel for free.

Offline culero

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2528
Gasoline differences?
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2005, 08:11:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
Also note that putting a higher octane fuel in your car will do nothing for performance or reliability unless it requires it.  Way to many folks put high test in a low compression engine thinking it will do some good.



Actually, most modern cars will benefit in terms of power and mileage from using the higher octane fuels, especially when ambient temperatures are relatively high.

The engine management systems we have now use what manufacturers refer to as "adaptive strategy" to optimize performance in real time. In particular, much of the time ignition timing can be stretched out a tad farther without causing detonation when using higher octane fuel, and this allows the management system to take advantage of that to achieve better efficiency.

Car manufacturers aren't going to publicize that because in addition to certifications for emissions and fuel mileage, they also advertise cost per mile figures. But if you're in the loop, factory service representatives will all tell you that their cars run better on premium fuel, and I observed that to be true based on the preponderance of anecdotal information I saw during my career in vehicle repair. 1 to 2 miles per gallon better during highway cruise on 92 octane compared to 87 octane is pretty common.

Aside from that, the other things being said here regarding additives are correct. I've seen many studies that documented enhanced engine internal cleanliness as a result of additves.

This both increases engine life for the obvious reason, and also ensures optimal performance. Calibrations in the management systems are dependent upon fixed sizes in combustion chambers (which are thrown out of whack by deposit buildup) fixed volume delivery and spray pattern from injection nozzles (which are thrown out of whack by deposit buildup) and consistent control of compression and blow-by (which are thrown out of whack by deposit buildup). Power, mileage, and emissions are all affected by all this significantly.

Deposit buildup on the backs of the intake valves in particular is a huge factor. Fuel additives that minimize this buildup prevent an odd phenomenon - the buildups are porous and actually soak up some of the fuel being delivered from the injection nozzles. This creates artificially lean mixtures in comparison to what the management system expects from the table-based fuel delivery, causing the system to have to make "off-center" compensations and almost always resulting in inconsistent performance (such as throttle lag and reduced power/mileage).

Deposit buildup in injector nozzles is also a frequent cause of hard starting, both because of the obvious (wrong volume delivery and spray pattern) and because deposits can cause nozzle leakage - the system should maintain a minimum "rest pressure" so fuel delivery begins instantly when the engine is cranked, but leakage reduces that to zero which means there's a lag as the fuel pump pressurizes the delivery circuit.

There are really significant differences in the additive packages of the various brands. I can't say which fuel is best now, but while I was in the business and privy to current information, Chevron and Shell were always really good. I particularly like the Chevron Techron over-the-counter additives. Also, major brands tend to have higher standards regarding storage facilities and filtration systems, resulting in better physical cleanliness of their fuel.

Bottom line, you get what you pay for, and smart shoppers do better (as is the case with many things ;))

culero (ASE certified Master Technician with 25+ years experience, hung up the wrenches in 2001)
“Before we're done with them, the Japanese language will be spoken only in Hell!” - Adm. William F. "Bull" Halsey

Offline LePaul

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7988
Gasoline differences?
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2005, 08:28:27 PM »
Charon,

When I worked at Saturn, it was 1996.  The engines in those cars were known to not be the greatest, but they did give those plastic cars great mileage.  One thing about Saturns Ive been told (again, third party) was the valving.  Techron certainly kept them clean.  I know my 95 Saturn SC2 had a noisy timing chain and the mechanic made mention of how clean the engine was.

I just make it part of the regular maintenance.  Some stores have it cheaper than others.  Ive noticed its pricier at auto stores versus, say, the local Target, etc.

Offline Lazerus

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2159
Gasoline differences?
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2005, 08:41:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charon
FWIW, this is not a formal promotion of ChevronTexaco, but they do make an effort to be a leader in this category and they showed a real interesting before and after display using engine valves.

Charon


When I lived in north AL there was a Smile(i think) station in the middle of town that was consistently 15-20 cents cheaper than the Chevron on the edge of town. And all the other stations really.

I asked the attendent about it. He told me the fuel truck would leave Chevron and come straight to his station to fill his tanks. Same gas he said. I was skeptical, but my old truck seemed to run the same on gas from either station.

A couple of weeks later I happened to see the fuel truck pull out of the Chevron. I followed it and watched it pull right into my little discount station.

My question is, do the trucks carry different fuels for different stations at the same time?

Offline culero

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2528
Gasoline differences?
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2005, 08:56:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lazerus
snip

My question is, do the trucks carry different fuels for different stations at the same time?


They can. The typical tanker has more than one compartment.

This is a distribution system thing. A wholesaler may need to consolidate delivery vehicles to deliver to different customers in smaller markets.

Its also true that the same truck may deliver Michelin tires and ElCrappoDeluxe tires. They're still not the same ;)

culero
“Before we're done with them, the Japanese language will be spoken only in Hell!” - Adm. William F. "Bull" Halsey