Author Topic: german unemployment  (Read 1176 times)

Offline Nilsen

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Re: Re: Re: german unemployment
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2005, 04:10:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
they also don't have 14 carrier battle groups crusing around the world.


and that is negative? ;)

Offline Redwing

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german unemployment
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2005, 04:45:51 AM »
Back in 1990 when germany was reunited we had a conservative government in charge. Only thanks to them the reunion worked out as well as it did politically.
Economically they messed it up entirely, putting too much faith in the strength of western germany's economy and the positive effects of capitalism.

Consequently east germany lost the vast majority of it's industrial capabilities since nothing over there was even barely able to withstand the pressures of competition that were forced upon them all of a sudden. That meant unemployment for ten thousands of people who hadn't known this for 40 years.

To counter the ongoing trend the government hastily created tools to transfer money from the west to the east, hoping it would spark the creation of new industries. In the last 15 years 1250 billion euro($1600 billion) have been transferred that way.
Obviously, it didn't help that much. Differences between east and west are still enormous. Due to the amount of money transfered and vanishing western germany has been living off it's very substance for over a decade. Economic growth doesn't make up for the lost amounts.

That coupled with the pressures of globalization, an oversized welfare system and a partly antiquated set of industrial laws with way too high taxes are paralysing the german economy. It doesn't seem to be able to partake in the current global upward economic trend, it stagnates.
The current government of course is attempting to do something about it and began reforms of a scale that so far are unmatched in germany's younger history. Unfortunately it still doesn't seem enough to turn the trend around so far.
One of the things they did recently was reform the welfare system. Until january 1st everyone who lost his job was eligible for years of unemployment payments. They reduced that, which was a good thing. Technically the reform also meant that a large amount of people who weren't included in the unemployment figures suddenly had to be integrated into those.
That's why unemployment rates rose significantly after january 1st. It's more a statistical than actual rise.

Still, it's a depressing trend. I'm not defending it or trying to downsize it's significance, even though I do think (and hope) that nobody seriously thinks of this as a possible repetition of history. Aside from all problems this country may have, I do think that the vast majority of people here are appreciating our democratic freedoms and would never trade them in. Learning from history does work. Creating a working democracy after WW2 did actually succeed here, which is why I can't stand idiots stating that this would never work in other regions of the world (read, the middle east). It did work before, so why not again and why not attempt it?

But well, I'm just babbling. Given the fact that this bbs is so full of people constantly bashing the US I think the reactions here are quite understandable (and some are actually funny indeed :))
I just wanted to add my perspective and maybe some background info. I like my country, believe in our democracy and try to keep my optimism and hopes up for the future.

Offline oboe

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german unemployment
« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2005, 07:02:42 AM »
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Originally posted by Redwing
...Learning from history does work. Creating a working democracy after WW2 did actually succeed here, which is why I can't stand idiots stating that this would never work in other regions of the world (read, the middle east). It did work before, so why not again and why not attempt it?


I agree on the importance of learning from history, and am thankful the the democracy started in Germany following WWII took hold.

However, I have to observe that the first democracy started in Germany following WWI didn't take hold, and the result of that failure led to the most destructive war this planet has ever known.   So as far as Germany's is concerned, we're batting only .500.

Granted, there are lots of differences between post WWII Germany and today's Middle East.   When I consider the differences in the people, that is, Germany's well-educated and industrious population vs. the Middle East's well, er..., well, um... I have to conclude the chances for a functional democracy surviving were better with postwar Germany.

And that is NOT to say that I hate America, or that democracy in the Middle East will never take hold.   My big concern is the cost of this war, along with the shift of the US's manufacturing and high-paying service industry jobs offshore and the impending retirements of the baby boomers may drive this country to the brink of financial ruin.    We are losing our middle class in America, and I don't think that bodes well for the long term health of our own democracy.

Offline DREDIOCK

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Re: Re: Re: german unemployment
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2005, 07:42:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
they also don't have 14 carrier battle groups crusing around the world.


See Gunslingers explination for ";) "
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline lazs2

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german unemployment
« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2005, 08:02:32 AM »
why were we not warned of this by the scandanavian economists and soothsayers on this board?

lazs

Offline Siaf__csf

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« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2005, 08:39:41 AM »
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Obviously, it didn't help that much. Differences between east and west are still enormous.


WTF!??!? Boroda just told me there was little to none difference between east and the west.

Surely you're lying.

Offline Krusher

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« Reply #36 on: March 02, 2005, 08:40:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Redwing
But well, I'm just babbling. Given the fact that this bbs is so full of people constantly bashing the US I think the reactions here are quite understandable (and some are actually funny indeed :))
I just wanted to add my perspective and maybe some background info. I like my country, believe in our democracy and try to keep my optimism and hopes up for the future.


Thanks Redwing, nice information.  I lived in Decature Alabama in 1980 when the unemployment rate was 13 percent.  So my original reaction to the German rate was based on personal knowledge of what a very high unemployment rate means.  As a member of the United Steel Workers I saw my union pretty much destroy the company we worked for.

Offline beet1e

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german unemployment
« Reply #37 on: March 02, 2005, 09:23:22 AM »
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Originally posted by oboe
However, I have to observe that the first democracy started in Germany following WWI didn't take hold, and the result of that failure led to the most destructive war this planet has ever known.  
There's a reason for that - The Treaty of Versailles. Under the terms of that treaty, the defeated nations were made to pay punitive war reparations. The terms were so harsh that Germany was simply finished. In 1923 when Germany defaulted on its reparation payments, the French Army occupied the Ruhr. The German government had to borrow as much money as it could to pay the war debt, and when it could borrow no more, it took the only other course of action left open: It "monetised" the debt, by which is meant that it simply prints the money - in Germany's case without security. The result was the hyperinflation of 1923 - the highest rate of inflation ever seen.

The result? People's life savings were wiped out. The economy was in ruins, and social unrest escalated. This coincided with the emergence of Hitler, who was quick to blame Jews and lefties for Germany's predicament. The Nazi party grew and grew, and was delivered another fillip in the form of the 1929 Wall St. stock market crash. By 1933, the Nazi position is unassailable, with Hitler becoming chancellor that year. The rest you know...

Some interesting links
  • Hyperinflation in 1923 Germany - an interesting study of Germany's problems following the Treaty of Versailles, with interesting comparisons with America (and the deficit) of modern times.
  • The rise of Adolf Hitler - catapulted to power by the Germany's economic crisis of the 1920s.

Offline oboe

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« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2005, 09:37:55 AM »
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Originally posted by beet1e
...The result?  People's life savings were wiped out. The economy was in ruins, and social unrest escalated. This coincided with the emergence of Hitler, who was quick to blame Jews and lefties for Germany's predicament. The Nazi party grew and grew, and was delivered another fillip in the form of the 1929 Wall St. stock market crash. By 1933, the Nazi position is unassailable, with Hitler becoming chancellor that year. The rest you know...


Thanks Beetle, that's interesting history and great reading.    It's interesting to note that Hitler, monster that he was, rose to power in a democracy!    Yet our leaders are constantly reassuring us the the democratization of the Middle East will solve the region's (and thus a host of the world's) problems.

Kinda makes you wonder, doesn't it?    Or it least it should.   We are spending a hell of alot of money (money that we don't have) on this endeavor.

Offline ygsmilo

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german unemployment
« Reply #39 on: March 02, 2005, 11:04:24 AM »
Nice post Red Wing.

Offline Monk

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« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2005, 11:14:22 AM »
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Originally posted by ygsmilo
Nice post Red Wing.
 yes it was.

Offline Replicant

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« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2005, 02:01:41 PM »
Good post Redwing!

I must say that I've enjoyed every single minute of being in Germany.  It's the cleanest, tidiest, safest, cheapest, best looking girls country I've ever been to! :)  Oh and the beer culture is simply fantastic!  Homer Simpson would be happy with the beer! :)
NEXX

Offline T0J0

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« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2005, 03:26:47 PM »
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Originally posted by Sandman
I'm patiently waiting for a German citizen to point out that he doesn't care what Americans think about his country and that Americans should mind their own business.


Hold your breath, we want to see you turn blue

Offline Redwing

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« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2005, 03:32:15 PM »
Krusher, what you're saying does have truth to it. Lately there has been an undeniable growth in ultra-right wing support here. Their party (NPD) even managed to take the 5% hurdle and entered the state parliament in saxony last fall. They're nothing more than a vocal nuisance, at least in total numbers and wouldn't stand a chance in a federal election. Still I don't think its coincidence that they managed to enter a state parliament in an eastern german state that is suffering from high unemployment.

Lack of perspective drives people towards extremists, and that's what I consider to be really dangerous about it.
There will always be neo nazi wackos, everywhere. What's dangerous about them isn't the few skinhead-retards. What's dangerous is the average joe who lost all his belief in politics after being unemployed for 5 years and votes for them. Give these people a perspective and they're not gonna vote ultra-right anymore.

hope that made sense, i had a couple beers after reading replicant's post :)

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2005, 04:19:20 PM »
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Originally posted by Replicant
Good post Redwing!

I must say that I've enjoyed every single minute of being in Germany.  It's the cleanest, tidiest, safest, cheapest, best looking girls country I've ever been to! :)  Oh and the beer culture is simply fantastic!  Homer Simpson would be happy with the beer! :)
You should have come to the Eurocon! It was held in Baarlo, which is only 2km from the German border. We went on a tour, and visited battlefields which featured in the campaign to liberate the Netherlands from the Nazis. On Friday, Tomato and I took a time out to visit Cologne. I thought it was similar to Frankfurt, though the Cathedral was somewhat more exotic. Damned nice building actually.