need some geek help

[StarOfAfrica2]

Question: In AH2 should V-sync still be on? Thanks

Yes it should.  Turning it off does nothing for you and may cause instability problems with your video (choppiness and freezing).

Your fps are limited by your monitor's refresh rate.  Period.  If your refresh is 60 hz, I dont care if your card says you are pulling 300 fps in AH.  You cant see more than 60 because your monitor cant show more than its refresh.  Setting the vsync to ON makes sure your fps is synced as well as can be with the refresh rate and caps it there to keep you from seeing artificial frame rate increases.

I'm also lazy, thus the question about a "ready-rolled". Back when I was involved, Dell was a cut above the rest in terms of customers being pleased with performance and support. I figured if others here were having good experience with 'em now, it might be worth considering since the price looks to be roughly equivalent (trade knowing what's inside for not having to screw with it).

Plus it doesn't hurt that a buddy of mine has their local contract for warranty service calls, so I know I'd get good service if needed (hey CRAIG, get yer prettythang over here NOW! )

But I don't hear any Dell owners piping up, so I'm leaning to assembly.

There is nothing wrong with buying a Dell.  Unless you plan to modify it, upgrade it, repair it, or do anything to it at all besides replace it.  For the standard home user who balances their checkbooks, does their taxes, gets their email and surfs the web, Dell makes perfectly good PC's.  They dont have the quality issues of HP/Compaq and they provide good service and good prices.

However, beyond very limited upgrade scenarios, most Dell's are useless to the average gamer or even tinkerers.  They severely frown on opening the case, have limited upgrade possibilities anyway, and often even come with chopped down versions of the Windows OS for their proprietary systems.  When I used to work for the RR we got a new Dell Optiplex 100 back in 2000 for the secretary to use and for us to provide updates to NS in Atlanta on freight on our yard.  They told us to get a scan-pen to scan the barcodes and make the data entry go faster.  It wouldnt work.  I spent an afternoon going over it with the tech support from the company that provided the pen, and finally he asked if we were using a Dell.  When I told him yes he laughed and told me to call Dell tech support.  Dell basically told me they had an OEM version of Windows that didnt provide as many IRQ's and that we couldnt add anything else to our computer (it had onboard video and sound, the only add on card was a 56k modem lol).  They felt it kept the "budget" version of their PC's running more smoothly if it wasnt bogged down with lots of devices.  I asked if we could install a full version of Windows and they said yes but it would void the warranty.

[Tilt]

I would say that AMD 2500+ is about the minimum investment level for 2005 and I would go higher if investing now

Same for Ati 9800 pro or Nvidia 5800 (if you want to stay with Win 98 then use nvidia)

1Gb Ram

Basic 5.1 soundware

MB's are fairly cheap these days and there are many to choose from. My rule of thumb is to reduce onboard goodies to a minimum and have sufficient PCI slots for my needs.

I made a separate game box and use a switch to share the mouse, keyboard and screen between the game box and the box I use for every thing else.

The game box  has a modest 20gig hard drive and old CD and floppy drives. It does have the best power supply I could fit in it.

Both boxes are networked with the kids PC's thru a switch and router.

Doing it this way you can build yer own without threatening the existing system or having to buy new screen  & KB etc just cos you have 2 pc's.

[john9001]

Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2

There is nothing wrong with buying a Dell.  Unless you plan to modify it, upgrade it, repair it, or do anything to it at all besides replace it.  
 

star read my post, i upgraded my el cheepo dell to run AH, ....open box (easy) plug in after mkt parts, win XP takes care of the rest, you don't need a custom built $1k box to play this game, you people remind me of Mac users, (you must have the "eleet" computer)

BTW i got a free printer and free upgrade to a beutafull LCD screen.

[38ruk]

Originally posted by john9001
star read my post, i upgraded my el cheepo dell to run AH, ....open box (easy) plug in after mkt parts, win XP takes care of the rest, you don't need a custom built $1k box to play this game, you people remind me of Mac users, (you must have the "eleet" computer)

This is what culero wants        "I define "good performance" as frame rates that never dip below 25 under any circumstances, good visibility of all planes/vehicles, terrain features, and objects , and optimal appearance of the artwork."      NO you dont need a 1k box to play this game , but an elcheapo  dell anit gunna cut it either .  Mosts Dells are an upgrade nightmare , as alot of the cheap ones dont even have AGP slots.   Most have power supplys that can only be upgraded from Dell , and they have dell bios's that shouldnt even be called bios, more like a place to set the time and date . So how much of an upgrade did u do ? its prolly safe to say it wasnt a cpu , given the bios limitation ..    no need to go after STAR ... he's only tryin to help

[culero]

Originally posted by Tilt
I would say that AMD 2500+ is about the minimum investment level for 2005 and I would go higher if investing now

Rgr that, based on others' advice I'm already looking at the 2700+ minimum.

Originally posted by Tilt

Same for Ati 9800 pro or Nvidia 5800 (if you want to stay with Win 98 then use nvidia)

Hmmm...first time I've heard that. Why NVidia for 98?

culero

PS - are DStar and GForce "in" at Coral Sea? We need to let ROC know if you/they wanna be assigned to the scout group. Drop an e-mail to wodbot about that, please?

[Tilt]

Originally posted by culero

Hmmm...first time I've heard that. Why NVidia for 98?

culero

ATI no longer update their drivers for Win98SE.

[FT_Animal]

I get AH2 to run on a PIII 450. it's just not strong enough to pull the game much above 32fps. Any major art crushes it. But I KNOW, without ANY doubt in my mind that I can make this game run just fine on a 800-1gb CPU system. The point that you need the fastest CPU made is almost a myth. What you need is the rest of the entire system designed to think streamline otherwise the massive CPU does no good at all.

The point where people buy the biggest baddest machine available are probably also ones who don't lift a finger to tweak it because it's "so fast", but somehow complain about lag, jittery graphics etc... Some people just do not know how to properly tweak a system and avoid it like the plague by buying a huge monster machine. I'm in no way against monster machines, I dream about them all the time, it's just not a 100% necessity.

What bogs down my 450 is the Nvidia MX 420 card, which is a total piece of crap, it's not much faster then a TNT2,  and only 256 RAM momory. Yet the system will still run the game offline.

I'm not the only one around who can make AH2 fly on a 450, it's not a happy playable thing online, but if I can get this much out of a 450 (17-32 fps) offline I can run with the big boys with a 1gb cpu and a nicely streamlined bus system online.

Culero, you know what I am going to say,...... build your own. In almost any package deal there is going to be at least one part that sucks. And all you need is that one single part to bottleneck the flow, causing machine latency.

Personally, I would pick the video card I want to use, and then build the system around that idea. This gives you the information you need to get the right MB to run that card right from get go. From there it's all no brainer standard issue. The core of a system is the mb/bios and video card.

The best package I've seen is the Dell, OTOH, Dell is not making a very good gaming system. Not like you and I are used to. And if you get that one part in a Dell system that sucks, you're pretty screwed.

There are places that custom build, but then you're paying someone to do something you and me can do blind folded.


Just my feeble 2 cents

Animl

[StarOfAfrica2]

Originally posted by john9001
star read my post, i upgraded my el cheepo dell to run AH, ....open box (easy) plug in after mkt parts, win XP takes care of the rest, you don't need a custom built $1k box to play this game, you people remind me of Mac users, (you must have the "eleet" computer)

BTW i got a free printer and free upgrade to a beutafull LCD screen.

John, I read your post.  In addition to the little snip you pulled out of my post I also said this

Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
beyond very limited upgrade scenarios, most Dell's are useless to the average gamer or even tinkerers. They severely frown on opening the case, have limited upgrade possibilities anyway, and often even come with chopped down versions of the Windows OS for their proprietary systems.

Note the use of the words "limited, most, average, and often" in my post there.  The normal reader would imply from that that there are exceptions to this, and that I am acknowledging it.  I wasnt trying to step on anyone's toes if they own a Dell.  I also wasnt trying to put down their product.  For what it is, its a very good product.  However, I maintain that it is NOT well suited to the average gamer (which you are probably not if all you did was add a video card and memory, and if you doubt this go check out most of the "gamer" forums on the web).  Many cheaper model Dells dont even have available open slots to upgrade the video.  And my information on the OEM OS they use came out of the mouth of a Dell tech support guy.  

As to any claim I might have on owning a "1337" computer, think again.  My rig is strictly "get me by for another year or so" technology.  Yes most of it was recently upgraded, but done on an extreme budget and most parts were bought one at a time because I couldnt afford to do more.  If you think I'm some kid who can afford to sit at home and spend mommy and daddy's money to buy electronica and play games with it, you are sadly mistaken.  My beat-up case has alot of miles on it, and it shows.  My Athlon XP 2600+ isnt what anyone would call "top of the line" and hasnt been for a couple of years.  Yes, it's OC'd, with the help of several guys here.  Last year what I knew about OCing anything could be written on one page of a very small sticky note pad.  Anyway, I digress.  

I'm glad your Dell with its new video card and memory upgrade works for you.  I wont deny it could work for others.  But you didnt pay for the Dell, it was free.  If the original poster had that option, I'd be right there backing him up in finding a way to upgrade it to make it work.  But to buy one?  For what you'd spend on the cheapest model I've seen (around 400 bucks), plus the cost of upgrading the memory and video anyway, I could pretty much build a system that would run AH just as well if not better.

[culero]

Based on input received so far, here's where I'm at in terms of possibilities/prices. Due diligence done via pricing at Newegg, benchmarks at Tom's Hardware. (Of course, once I settle in on "what" I'll shop the prices more extensively, just doing Newegg now for "apples to apples" value).

I was *really* wanting to spend in the $600-$700 range to get my desired performance level in AH2, and it appears I can....but it looks like there's a lot of value in terms of system longevity and ability to upgrade by going more like $1100.

$900 is significantly better than the base system, but is still Socket A, so I'm ruling that intermediate step out - gonna either go cheapo or an $1100 AMD 64 with an SLI board so I have as much upgrade headroom as possible. (I could go $1300 and run the SLI w/2 6600GTs, but don't think I need it now and can always add the 2nd card whenever)

MUCHO thanks for all the input so far, specs/prices appended, comments welcome

culero

*************************************************


Socket A    
Athlon XP 2700+2.17GHz, 333MHz FSB, 256K   $109
Soltek SL-75FRN2-RL nForce2 Ultra 400   $65
Corsair Value Select 184 Pin 512MB DDR PC-3200   $126
RADEON 9600PRO Video Card, 256MB DDR (Sapphire)   $111
Antec P4 ATX12V 450 Watt P.S.   $76
RAIDMAX Beige 10-bay Case, Model ATX-208   $19
Maxtor Ultra Series Kit 80GB 7200RPM SATA Hard Drive   $91
NEC 1.44MB Model FD1231H   $8
ASUS 52X32X52 IDE Internal CD-RW   $28
total   $633
   
upgrades   
Seagate 160GB Barracuda 7200.7 7200RPM SATA Hard Drive   $34
nVidia GeForce 6600 256MB DDR (Aopen)   $45
ENERMAX CSX656TA-MW case   $39
   
Socket A (2)   
Athlon 3200+ Barton 2.2GHz, 400MHz FSB, 512K   $155
Soltek SL-75FRN2-RL nForce2 Ultra 400   $65
Geil Ultra dual channel PC4000 2X512   $179
nVidia GeForce 6600 256MB DDR (Aopen)   $156
Antec P4 ATX12V 450 Watt P.S.   $76
RAIDMAX Beige 10-bay Case, Model ATX-208   $19
WD740GD Raptor 74GB 10KRPM SATA   $181
NEC 1.44MB Model FD1231H   $8
ASUS 52X32X52 IDE Internal CD-RW   $28
total   $867
   
upgrades   
ENERMAX CSX656TA-MW case   $39
ASUS A7N8X-E Deluxe nForce2 Ultra 400   $26
   
Socket 939   
Athlon 64 3200+ Winchester 2.2GHz 512K (25% increase)   $191
GIGABYTE GA-K8NF-9    $116
Geil Ultra dual channel DDR PC4000 2X512   $179
nVIDIA GeForce 6600GT Video Card 128MB DDR3 (Aopen)   $194
Antec P4 ATX12V 450 Watt P.S.   $76
ENERMAX CSX656TA-MW case   $58
WD740GD Raptor 74GB 10KRPM SATA   $181
NEC 1.44MB Model FD1231H   $8
ASUS 52X32X52 IDE Internal CD-RW   $28
total   $1,031
   
upgrades   
ASUS A8N-SLI (2XPCI-Ex16, GB LAN, ALC850 8-Ch)   $59
MSI K8N Neo4 Platinum SLI (2XPCI-Ex16, 2xGB LAN, SBLive7.1)   $69
Antec TRUE550 550W P.S.   $23
Athlon 64 FX-53 Clawhammer 1MB (50% increase)   $536
   (***dreaming*** )

video upgrades   
nVIDIA GeForce 6800 Video Card, 256MB DDR (Leadtek)   $95
nVIDIA GeForce 6800 GT Video Card, 256MB GDDR3 (eVGA)   $205
ATI Radeon X800 XL Video Card, 256MB GDDR3 (MSI)   $155
nVIDIA GeForce 6800 Ultra Video Card, 256MB GDDR3 (eVGA)   $305
All-In-Wonder RADEON X800 XT Video Card, 256MB GDDR3 (ATI)   $294
nVIDIA GeForce 6600GT Video Card 128MB DDR3 (Aopen) (2X-SLI)   $194

high performance (3200+ Winchester) (6600GT X2-SLI)   $1,317
   
max performance (FX-53 Clawhammer) (6800GT X2-SLI)   $2,263 ~sigh~

best value (basic Socket 939 + SLI board + 550W P.S.)   $1,113

[DieAz]

Originally posted by culero
(hey, this is gameplay related! I'm getting the new box so I can kick ALL yer dog prettythanges! )

 yanno to do that, you gonna have to quit running from us.        

[Gnatz]

Remarkably helpful thread, seein' as how I'm (finally) building a gnu box so I can fly again.  I've been away from the unfriendly skies much too long -- but it still might be another month or two b4 I finishes it.

And somebody PLEASE make Culero put his clothes back on.

[StarOfAfrica2]

Culero, the first socket A setup you described is almost identical to mine that I'm running now.  For the price difference, dont even worry about the higher number socket A processors.  The 2700+ will easily run at a 400mhz FSB instead of the 333 it's set for and push the processor speed up past where that 3200+ is anyway.  The only things I would change to that setup is 1GB of RAM instead of 512MB, and go for the better video card now if you can afford it.  

In the end though, buy what makes you happy.  If your budget can afford to stretch that far, by all means go for the 64 with the hottest video card and all the bells and whistles.  If its going to bankrupt you though, build the cheaper system and give yourself breathing space.  You could make that 2700 system last quite awhile and buy parts one at a time that will work in a newer system.  Again, thats just my opinion.



Also, in the second system you describe (the Athlon XP3200+) the PC4000 Dual Channel RAM is nice, but not really necessary for this system.  You could save money by staying with PC3200 RAM.  The Athlon processors cant use Dual Channel (thats an Intel thing).  Wont hurt.  But not necessary.

[culero]

Yeah typo in my post, the first system spec'ed doesn't say "2X" by the RAM but the price is for 2 sticks.

Actually, what I'm looking for is like I said - run AH right. OTOH, if the difference in price is only a couple or three hundred, "bang for buck" kicks in, and in that sense the 939 socket and SLI become arguing points for buying more than I need.

Thanks everyone for the help, its been great. I'll post results when available.

culero

[Kev367th]

I believe (I may be wrong) that Skuzzy has said no setup that can be built at present can run AH2 with max everything and maintain good frame rates.

StarofAfrica - Both the XP and AMD64 use dual channel memory buses it's not just an 'Intel' thing.

[culero]

GNATZ!

culero (heyas man!)