Author Topic: Dealing with the LA7 in a F6F (Read 2837 times)

Redd · « **Reply #30 on:** March 02, 2005, 08:47:47 PM »

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Originally posted by debuman
Somedbody needs to notify GREEBO of this right away and tell him to stop flying his hellcat around. He needs to read this thread and realize that he's supposed to die - not land 5 or 6 kills everytime he takes that thing up.......maybe the rest of us could live longer!

Greebo is a very good Hellcat pilot, he career K/D's at around 4.0

The survivalist guys (eg AKfoder) are looking for something they can K/D at least 10+ in - even more.

I don't believe he will do this in a Hellcat , you just can't always leave when you need to - it's as simple as that.

dedalos · « **Reply #31 on:** March 03, 2005, 08:43:48 AM »

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Originally posted by AcId
or.....SA

You can tell that to your self if you like. SA and furbal don't really mix very well. Unless you are talking about a 2 on 2. In a furbal of 10 on 10, there is no SA, unless you are flying 5K over it and you pick people off.

dedalos · « **Reply #32 on:** March 03, 2005, 08:48:26 AM »

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Originally posted by Pongo
OK pilot(me) in hellcat without support is low on the deck with an OK pilot(me) in an La7.

La7 expects turning behavior from the Hellcat. Hellcat expects either run away behavior if the La7 wants to disengage or Climb if he wants to gain adavantage.

Hellcat best chance is to show turn but expect climb, keep enought speed that you can bring the guns to bare for a 4-500 yard shot at the climbing la7. If you can cut off his climb befor he really gets in the saddle you get him turning at slow speeds where you have the only advantages that you will get against him. I think lots of LA7s die in a way to aggressive climb out.

You cant be shy with the ammo, you have to really hurt him or he will just disengage at will.

If he is just pining you down till the spits come then go for the ho.

Pongo, this is a situation where equal pilots meet, but the guy on your six has the better plane. What am I missing here? Why do you, and a lot of other people, think they can win this situation? Not impossible, but it would require a lot of mistakes from the bad guy. Please dont view this as an attack. I really don;t get it since if anyone with any skill gets on my six, I am dead. The whole game is to avoid having some one there.

DamnedRen · « **Reply #33 on:** March 03, 2005, 08:53:43 AM »

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Originally posted by 214thCavalier
Spits are very good in a dive, however once you level out they cannot retain that speed for long.

Any LA7 that stays to fight an F6F should be dead.
Co alt if an LA7 tries to disengage with a dive he will be in trouble because the F6F accelerates well in a dive and he will be in your guns range for long enough, but again once level the LA7 will run away.

What? Dead? Anyone ever hear of airbrakes? The LA7 can turn with alot of other planes if you use em! Sorry, an F6F is meat around an LA7.

Now you figure out what the airbrakes are

Tactics!!! Think tactics!

humble · « **Reply #34 on:** March 03, 2005, 08:59:52 AM »

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Originally posted by dedalos
Pongo, this is a situation where equal pilots meet, but the guy on your six has the better plane. What am I missing here? Why do you, and a lot of other people, think they can win this situation? Not impossible, but it would require a lot of mistakes from the bad guy. Please dont view this as an attack. I really don;t get it since if anyone with any skill gets on my six, I am dead. The whole game is to avoid having some one there.

Actually I dont think it matters if the con is on your 6 or in a "better" plane or both. The overriding factor is still going to be pilot skill and enviornment. The number of cons is a much greater factor since its relatively easy to reverse a single con.

dedalos · « **Reply #35 on:** March 03, 2005, 09:03:49 AM »

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Originally posted by humble
Actually I dont think it matters if the con is on your 6 or in a "better" plane or both. The overriding factor is still going to be pilot skill and enviornment. The number of cons is a much greater factor since its relatively easy to reverse a single con.

True, I am only talking equal skills 1 on 1. The better plane should win right? If not, then it is not the better plane. Perk the F6, lol

Pongo · « **Reply #36 on:** March 03, 2005, 10:25:36 AM »

I missed that part Dedelos.

Wadke · « **Reply #37 on:** March 03, 2005, 10:28:52 AM »

Basically you all know i disagree with yas. I fly that hellcat way too much.

Basically ya gotta use angles and flaps to your advantage. The Hellcat is great at low speeds IMHO. Only a few planes really give me any trouble at low alt (Spit5, A6M). Dodge the La7 and he will get impatient and end up getting into a turnfight witrh you and then he is meat on a platter.

On a side note the Hellcat is slow, except when diving. It can also hide it's E state very well which is what you want. I say keep flying the thing and use angles to your advantage.

I don't fly my hellcat very altitude wise (barely get past 7K). The thing is an animal and ya gotta be confident you can beat who your fighting and most of tyhe time you will win.

humble · « **Reply #38 on:** March 03, 2005, 11:30:03 AM »

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Originally posted by dedalos
True, I am only talking equal skills 1 on 1. The better plane should win right? If not, then it is not the better plane. Perk the F6, lol

Thats a fine line....even if pilot skill is "even" then you get into style...its not uncommon in a 1 on 1 for two good sticks to reverse each other 2 or 3 times...often it comes down to choosing your shot and taking your chance. Personally if I'm in a F6..or Ki-61, -1 hog etc...and I'm facing a "top 5" plane I want the better stick...since usually he'll be more aggressive. It's the mediocre pilot in the great plane that presents the biggest problem since he's good enough to "know" ACM...but only flies well inside the safe zone.

dedalos · « **Reply #39 on:** March 03, 2005, 11:51:43 AM »

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Originally posted by humble
Thats a fine line....even if pilot skill is "even" then you get into style...its not uncommon in a 1 on 1 for two good sticks to reverse each other 2 or 3 times...often it comes down to choosing your shot and taking your chance. Personally if I'm in a F6..or Ki-61, -1 hog etc...and I'm facing a "top 5" plane I want the better stick...since usually he'll be more aggressive. It's the mediocre pilot in the great plane that presents the biggest problem since he's good enough to "know" ACM...but only flies well inside the safe zone.

All this is true and they are all good points. I am not saing the F6 doe snot have a chance.

Don't forget, the lala is already on your six. All I was saing is that some people here will tell you that they have a guaranted kill on the LA7 in that situation and they go on the list all the assumptions and the things the LA pilot will do for sure, lol. If I was going to place a bet, I would place it on the LA7

Ecliptik · « **Reply #40 on:** March 03, 2005, 01:33:03 PM »

While the Hellcat can turn very well, especially with the aid of a notch or two of flaps, it's heavy, and has poor acceleration. This means that you should try to stay fast if you are facing more than one enemy. The F6F is my second favourite plane, one down from the 38, and the two planes are very similar in that both fall between "average" and "good" in most characteristics, but hold few to no trump cards, so it's all about being aware of the strength and weaknesses of your own plane and the planes of your enemies, and applying them appropriately.

In the F6F, your strengths are:

-Above average instantaneous turn rate at all speeds
-Low stall speed and good sustained turn, especially with use of flaps and rudder
-Good dive handling and acceleration, remains controllable at very high speed
-Good zoom climb due to heavy airframe
-High durability
-Good view over the nose for gunnery

Your weaknesses are:
-Mediocre top speed
-Poor level acceleration
-Poor energy retention
-Fairly crappy roll rate at low speed

Against an LA-7 you definitely want to try to force them to slow down and fall prey to your superior stallfighting characteristics. However, against multiple opponents, the F6F will have a very hard time extricating itself from a situation where it gets low and slow, due to the bad acceleration, especially from 100 to 200 mph. So, against multiple cons or planes that can out-turn you, it's a better idea to try to take advantage of your dive and zoom climb to do what I like to call "micro-BnZ", where you perform a series of tight/steep, looping BnZ passes on people, never getting more than 4000-5000 feet above them. You can dive away from most planes, and often it's your only option for building speed, so keeping some altitude is essential.

Edit: Didn't notice the specific situation where the LA-7 is on your six. Your only option is to dump some speed and force the overshoot. Chop your throttle, pop out some flaps if possible, and pull into a rolling scissors. Hopefully you'll have a shot when he comes out the other side. The Hellcat's durability is a benefit that you really feel here, as you have a pretty good chance at surviving a few 20mm hits.

humble · « **Reply #41 on:** March 03, 2005, 01:39:28 PM »

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Originally posted by dedalos
All this is true and they are all good points. I am not saing the F6 doe snot have a chance.

Don't forget, the lala is already on your six. All I was saing is that some people here will tell you that they have a guaranted kill on the LA7 in that situation and they go on the list all the assumptions and the things the LA pilot will do for sure, lol. If I was going to place a bet, I would place it on the LA7

I agree with you there...

Especially with a lala you never have a "sure kill"...it has the power to overcome pilot idiocy:)...

I never worried about a "fair fight" in a 1 vs 1....unless its a pure bounce right after takeoff I could care less about starting positions. He's still got to get in close to kill ya...and if he's close enough to hit you ...then he's close enough for you to hit him also...

214thCavalier · « **Reply #42 on:** March 03, 2005, 02:09:17 PM »

Ren in my opinion your opinion is wrong.
I can only recall being killed 1v1 v an LA7 once.

I do not count those where they play whack-a-mole while your already engaged.

Perhaps if you had more time in the F6F you might appreciate it more.

AcId · « **Reply #43 on:** March 03, 2005, 02:12:32 PM »

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Originally posted by dedalos
You can tell that to your self if you like. SA and furbal don't really mix very well. Unless you are talking about a 2 on 2. In a furbal of 10 on 10, there is no SA, unless you are flying 5K over it and you pick people off.

Thats a subjective opinion, nothin wrong with that man, we're all entitled to our own. However, I'm not "telling myself what I like" I was just sharing my opinion and experience. You didn't come out and say it was impossible to do, I'll give ya that, but you must admit it is possible to get in the fray and exit without cherry pickin. One might not have the best chance at surviving but I'll tell you what, in a large furball you bet yer bottom my view hat is gettin hot from the friction so ya can't say there is no SA involved. One might not be able to track and anticipate all targets, and those that don't probably prioritize the list to the nearest/fastest bandits.

sorry folks.....I'm gettin slightly off topic here.....back to your regularly scheduled thread.

oh and Cav.....

-Whack-a-mole-

DamnedRen · « **Reply #44 on:** March 03, 2005, 02:34:28 PM »

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Originally posted by 214thCavalier
Ren in my opinion your opinion is wrong.
I can only recall being killed 1v1 v an LA7 once.

I do not count those where they play whack-a-mole while your already engaged.

Perhaps if you had more time in the F6F you might appreciate it more.

Everyone has a right to their opinions and I respect yours. I have flown cat's before and know their characteristics. When I see a Cat I go right for em because they're so easy to kill.

I surely hope you continue to fly them as we'll meet one of these days "up there" and you can have yer way with me.

Ren